My impression of this unit is that it is rather min-maxed.

All its armament is at the same range, and concentrated on the same target type. It has 40cm speed and good to hit values, in a unit for which hit n run is its modus operandi. It can enter via wraithgate, with a threat range of 125cm. It might even be able to garrison?? The comparison with the Falcon's weaponry is flawed IMO - you're comparing a Falcon at 30cm range, which in my experience doesn't happen frequently enough to be the standard to compare to. I don't even think that LV 4+ is necessarily any worse than AV 5+.

The truth is the unit's strengths are in areas important to its primary role, and its weaknesses are de-emphasised or not relevant in the way it will normally be used. The hornet with these stats is honed as an out and out tank hunter (and BTW 3 units will average 4 hits on advance not 3, and a formation of 6 would average 8 hits).

Having said all this, to me it's only really a problem when all the stats are combined together. A 40cm unit is pretty extreme (is this really necessary?), to let it come that far (or more) out of a wraithgate and then shoot 45cm with all its weapons is a bit unfair. Admittedly there are no Void Spinners providing long range firepower, but at least those need to be on the table waiting to be targeted by teleport, air assault, ground attack, pinpoints, artillery etc. There's only overwatch that can do anything to stop this unit getting its shots off. Maybe without the wraithgate angle.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

It has a whole bunch of rules that make it faster than any other Eldar vehicle in 40k - it can move at maximum "fast" speed and still fire all its weapons, or it can elect not to shoot and move an extra 12". It's the fastest thing in the game bar flyers I think.

The background too is consistent with this:

"Even by the Eldar race's high standards, the Hornet's engine is a wonder of its kind. With an estimated top speed of 600kph..."

"capable of limited ... atmospheric flight"

"...amongst the fastest and (most) heavily armed for their size known..."



Considering that good AP weapons are generally much more prevalent than good AT weapons (even arty hits AP easier), LV 4+ is definitely a worse stat to have than AV 5+.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Sorry I don't play that game, hence the question. I don't doubt it is faster than other units (it seems typical of GW to bring out ever faster units), just whether it is a feature that is absolutely necessary to represent in Epic. I'm afraid I'm not really familiar with 40K speeds (and they change over time), for instance I've no idea if jetbikes, falcons, land speeders, bikes, skorchas, buggies, vultures, valkyries etc all have the same speed. It doesn't seem like they should, but they all have the same speed in Epic. And that's for all sorts of reasons, some to do with the units or "realism" (e.g. headline top speed isn't the main factor), others just due to balance/abstraction. So the question is, if the differences between a skorcha and a vulture are not sufficient to give a bonus to speed, is the difference between a vulture and a hornet? Maybe it is, but I just want to see a compelling case made where breaking new ground is on the agenda. Here's where you tell me all of the other (really inappropriate) new Epic units that already have 40cm speed

I should emphasise the "necessarily" - I meant that it is not a clear cut X > Y, but rather depends on the situation. And even arty get exactly the same odds in the end, because although they get to use the AP to hit, you've given them a better armour save. Again, I'm not saying I dispute your conclusion, only that I think it's much closer than you're making it sound. I know it's generally accepted that introducing LVs into a formation is a bad thing, but having used jetbikes and vypers a lot, I find having LV targets surprisingly rarely actually results in more things shooting at them and/or scoring hits, and the better armour save comes into play more often. It won't necessarily be the same situation for Hornets (e.g. less likely to be in assaults), but still it's worth thinking about more carefully I think.

Basically you have to weigh up:
1. You will make 50% more saves with 4+ than 5+
2. You will have some undetermined number of extra hits to save

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

A more relative comparison - it has a 33% greater speed than a Falcon's maximum speed, I think.
I'm not 100% certain on 40k speeds these days either. But it's damned quick.


Kinda a misleading stat.

AV6+ is where I'd put it if it were to be an AV.

But I think LV is more appropriate.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Top speed isn't the main factor for determining Epic speed though.

Aren't Vultures and Valkyries flyers in 40k anyway?

40k rules should be used as a helpful guide, not as a bible. :-)

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Oh, I agree to that!

I just think 35cm can be appropriate for the Hornet, too.

I do think twin Pulse Laser is a bit much, as the Hornet will then have more firepower than a Falcon at ranges over 30cm, which is pretty common.

This is the case in 40k though. Hornets pack more firepower beyond 36" range.

_________________
"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

I was comparing to the falcon at 5+. But in any case, 6+ -> 4+ is an even larger difference - you will make 3 times as many saves. That means to be considered equal, you're anticipating 3x as many hits as an LV than as an AV. I'm not convinced that's representative of the reality.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

Err, not a comment on balance, but 4+ is a bit less than twice as good as 6+. Two hits on average to kill a unit with 4+, 1.2 hits to kill a unit with 6+.

A bit under twice as many hits on an LV isn't that unreasonable

Err, right. The first bit is correct, 3x more likely to make any given save and will make 3x as many saves for a given number of hits, but got a bit ahead of myself there extrapolating to the stat used to weigh against "extra AP hits".

To think of it another way:
I get 6 hits, which will on average result in one 6+ save or three 4+ saves. That's a useful metric as it tells you that the firepower put out by a given formation will be much less effective.
To get three 6+ saves, there'd need to be 18 hits, but that's not really a useful metric as a shedload more units died in the process
To get five kills, you'd need 6 hits (6+) or 10 hits (4+). That's useful as it tells you what proportion of extra hits you'd have to be expecting as an LV to have parity with the AV stat. Either because AP values are significantly better, or your opponent targets them with more units/formations.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

Guys, at 5+ a unit saves 33% of the hits. At 4+ the unit saves 50% of hits. This represents a 50% increase in resilience. It is probably justified given the additional AP shots.

I am much more concerned over the shooting stats and formation numbers. IMO the shooting is overpowered, especially given scout (garrisoning?) and 35cm move - 40cm is not needed.

Ginger, I think that's the wrong way to think about it. What effect does the number of saved hit have on a game? Nothing, except as how it relates to the ratio between hits taken and dead units. Which is 2:1 for 4+ and 3:2 for 5+, so the survivability increase from 5+ to 4+ is +33%, not +50%.

(This is the same numbers as Kyrts 10 hit vs 6 hits).

Take 4+ reinforced armour: A unit with 4+ RA saves 75% of all hits taken. Is that really just a 50% increase in resilience over a 4+ save unit? My numbers give 100% increase, which I think is more in line with what happens on the table.

Also note that a lot of formations have some kind of mixed weaponry, and many weapons have improved to hit vs inf.

And the armor value of an eldar vehicle plays less of a role as the shooting range + speed of the vehicle increases because of their ability to move, shoot, then move back/hide.

A 40cm move + 45cm gun range on an AV w/ 6+ armour is more survivable than a 35cm move + 30cm gun range on an AV w/ 4+ armour.

The former would likely suffer less from suppression than the latter as well.

Hornets certainly should not be able to garrison.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter