I look forward to seeing your reports!

Guardian Durability: I agree from a human perspective it doesn't make a lot of sense. People focus in on the fact that the Eldar have highly advanced tech and just assume that they would apply it in the same fashion as human beings - longer range, heavier armor.

But that's not Eldar. In general, I'd say this is the hardest thing for most people to wrap their heads around when it comes to Eldar. Eldar as "space elves" have historically been treated as very fey and alien in their mindset. The Slaanesh focus on experiences of all kinds is born of the Eldar psyche. There is no art to standing far off and bombarding the enemy from behind thick, protective barriers. They want the dance of close combat, to experience the visceral thrill of looking their enemies in the eyes as they die. In some ways, it's their license to engage in some of the vices that led to their fall and I would argue it is part of why Aspect Warriors have a greater risk of being "addicted" to their Path than Eldar on other Paths.

From that kind of perspective, of course they don't force their poets and sculptors to wear heavy, unfamiliar armor and use long range weapons when they go into combat. Doing so would be a tragedy. It would rob those brave souls of their experience. If the craftworld is in a situation where the Guardians are forced to serve and possibly die they should be allowed the rewards.

As far as justification for saves, I might be able to see 6+ if you factor in the assumption that there are plenty of psychic power defenses floating around. Any more than that is reaching, imho.

AA: Eldar have the ability to completely dominate the air. With firestorms for dedicated AA, auxiliary AA on titans and Cobras, Nightwing interceptors and Phoenixes that can intercept in a pinch, they can readily sweep the skies clear. Unless you're facing lots of barrage weapons, Eldar can afford to bunch up their formations. That means you can fit your entire army under a very small AA umbrella and every flak unit is virtually guaranteed to be able to fire at incoming aircraft. I've seen 4-500 points of Eldar AA render 1200 points of Ork aircraft nearly worthless.

Reapers: 5+ is for balance. They are one of the best aspects as they are and the only one with more than 15cm range. If they had 4+ save they would be as good as Dire Avengers in FF (fewer hits, but more saves to make up for it) and they would still have lots of ranged fire. The fact that they take to battle in smaller squads is just a convenient rationalization for giving them a weaker save.

In capable hands Eldar are terrifying to behold, slaughtering all before them when properly set up and used, mitigating their few weaknesses by uparmouring Guardians, Falcons and Titans would overpower them in a heartbeat. Upping cost only goes so far when fun and gameplay are concerned, the list has seen years of development and most people here will agree that very minor issues aside it is fun and balanced.

Guardians will die like flies if you leave them in the open or use them offensively in assaults. Even then, a few Wraithguards/lords or Wave Serpents are all that is needed to give them that ability, and voilá, Ulthwé works.

There is no reason to give them saves IMO, use Aspects for armoured infantry and you are all set.

QFT!

Guardians in Epic act and fight the way that they should in 40K, but don't (damn Gav Thorpe!). If you add armor saves to Guardians their points will increase. That's something that I personally wouldn't like to see.

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-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

I hadnt thought about this. If you have an Engine of Vaul Troupe with 2 Cobras and 3 BMs on them, 1 Cobra is still supressed, thought, right?

I also hadnt thought about BMs on a Swords of Vaul unit. If you have 2 BMs, do the Firestorms then not get to fire? Scary to consider!




Not quite sure what you mean here. Nightwings have their AA in Fixed Forward, and I have yet to encounter the opponent who Intercepts my fighters from the front Do you mean the Orks get shot up by my ground flak as they bounce in from CAP per the FAQ?

@OP:
I see you have a lot of enthusiasm for the Eldar and are eager to see them not dwindled in your perception. I also see you admitting that youre new to the game of Epic with very little experience. Not intending to offend, but that was my tip off that you just need to play mroe games

I have played Epic just for a year now, and only seriously (ie its the only minis game Im playing these days) for 6 months. In that time I have learned a ton about how the Eldar work. Not having a huge 40K base, I am only recently learning about the Eldar, fluff-wise, but game-wise I think they work great. I have to handle them with kid gloves, as I can break them as easily as my opponent can if I play dumb, but I can honestly say they give my oppoents pause when Im doing things right.

And this, I think, is why I play them

Right.



For the purposes of AA, all units are considered to be within range and line of sight. So if the Firestorms are at the back of the unit from the point of view of the aircraft, then yes. If they are in the middle, units are suppressed back to front as normal, so it will take more BMs to suppress them.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I dont use formations of SHTs unless I use Cobras. Having 4BP is so much more effective than 2BP, especially considering how nasty that D-Cannon is to begin with...

I play Ulthwe a lot, with some success. The keys to that success are high activation count and multiple Guardian delivery options - I would downgrade your 2 main Guardian fms to normal Guardians + Wraithguard, saving you 400pts. They're still seriously nasty assault fm - stick the Wraithguard up front for 3 4+RA hit shields and you get 10 4+, 3 MW4+ and 1 5+ FF attacks. Prep with your nightspinners and storm serpent, clip and use the storm serpent in support and you should wipe out most formations. Add a storm serpent for 250pts. Add 50pts to your Seer Council Guardian fm (it's 150pts for the Guardians + 100pts for the Seer Council + 50pts for support weapons), though that makes a great blitz guard with your nightspinners. That leaves 100pts over. I'd then drop the fire prisms for a 5 strong falcon fm (with 2 firestorms), which gives you another 75pts (and some much needed AA), which leaves 175pts. You could either get another ranger fm and make them all fms of 5, or you could drop 1 ranger fm, get another 5 strong falcon fm (which would give you nasty nasty AA) and put the extra 25pts into another ranger stand for the remaining fm.

That'll give you 10-11 activations, across the board assault range, killer anti-tank capabilities and enough AA that your opponent will have to seriously rethink their air assault plans I haven't used Revenants before, as I tend to play with ~14 activations and a Guardian+wraithguard+wraithlord BTS fm in the webway, but they're pretty nasty. You do pay for it in activations though.

Matt,

I agree with your choices, and you make some really good points of units to take.

However, your list looks like mine, and I play Biel-Tan mostly when Im not mucking around with Saim-Hann. There is a point when an Eldar army just looks like an Eldar army, but your "Ulthwe" list has nothing Ulthwe about it. In fact, I could build the exact same list as Biel-Tan or likely even other craftworlds.

Thats not bad, and I think actually points to you taking a solid, proven list, but does detract from the Ulthwe-ness of that list.

Food for thought. When making a list, I try to take what I know works, and add in the craftworld I am playing with for the "extra spice".

He has 2 Black Guardian Hosts, 1 Guardian Host, and NO Aspect Troupes. If that isn't Ulthwé I don't know what is.

_________________
-Malakai

"You'll never understand how much watching other people's pain gets me off, hearing their screams and knowing that I have the power of a god." -Velvet Acid Christ

I'm talking about Mattthemuppet's rewrite. I printed out matt's post and doodled all over it to get a clear visual of what he was talking about, and it ended up looking like my Biel-Tan army.

The Biel-Tan lists I've seen tend to have a lot of Aspect warhosts plus alot of different support (including Void spinners), whereas my Ulthwe army is usually 4-5 Guardian hosts, limited support and no aspects. I think the 2 support for 1 core and the only core being Guardians usually flavours Ulthwe lists quite nicely, but if you're taking titans (which I tend not to) then the limitations that forces on you tend to make similar looking lists. Obviously there's no reason why you can't make that list in Biel-Tan, but why would you?

For reference, this is my standard Ulthwe list:

List two - Ulthwe
Wraithgate 50
Black guardians 200

Guardians+WG 300

Guardians+WG+WL 475
Guardians+SC 250


Rangers 4 100
Rangers 4 100
Nightspinners 175
Falcons+2xFS 6 300
Falcons+2xFS 6 300
Engines of Vaul - Storm Serpent 1 250

Vampire 200
Nightwings 300
Total 3000

I don't know any Biel-Tan players that field a list like that