I think a small tweak is just the right amount of change needed, they're not that badly overpowered and it gives them a weakness; rather than being good at close combat and great at FF they now become just ok at CC.

An Eldar player would obviously prefer to FF but there are times when plans and/or the dice go awry or the enemy does something unexpected and you end up in CC, particularly should be deep in enemy territory or facing a fast mounted ork horde or something.

I used 8 Vampire deployed Warp Spiders in my 4k Britcon list and there were times when they ended up in CC and I remember explaining to a surprised opponent that they had FS as a unit rather than just for their FF attacks, which they didn't believe me about initially nor thought justified.

To be true to the 'fluff' just presented, WS really ought to get First Strike only when they initiate the assault and not at other times - but that is one step further than the mechanics can withstand. So I am with the others that suggest moving First Strike to the weapon (sorry semajnollissor).

One other change I would advocate is the idea of replacing 'Infiltrator' with a greater move distance. 25cm for instance provides a futher toning down of their abilities while IMHO it also represents better their ability to warp short distances.

If that  is deemed insufficient, perhaps consider toning down their armour with variable armour (4+ in assault, 5+ at other times). Now before you all shout, I accept they are considered to be one of the tougher of all Aspects. The point behind this being that one of the cardinal design considerations for Aspects in E:A is that they should be identically costed (and so balanced internally against each other).

And I do agree with others that going down this path of toning down the Warp Spiders will make the combined WS/HB formation much more appropriate and likely. However we must also allow Warp Spiders back in ground transport; without this, the combined formation just won't happen.

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

During my catching up reading of the changes which were made to the Swordwind rules, I actually felt that not allowing Warp Spiders to ride in a transport was a very good change, since there is no way that they should be allowed to ride in a transport with Warp Jump Generators attached to their backs in my opinion.

They may not need changing in any case, but if they do, I would rather that this rule change were not rescinded.

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Intruiging. Are you taking this view purely from a 'fluff' perspective? IIRC, this was presented by Sotec (the previous Eldar champ) as a means of nerfing the WS from a game-play perspective. As others have pointed out, Warp Spiders excel at clipping, and in Wave Serpents this is exagerated because their assault range extends to 50cms.

The problem here is that if we restrict the WS, in order to make the combined WS/HB viable we would need to find some alternative movement mechanism. My suggestion (from the HB thread) would be to give the WS a move of 25cm, and the HB a move of 20cm with Infiltrator. This means the combined formation would be able to assault 40cm into contact with an enemy formation (the HBs in B-B and the WS 15cm behind) which makes the combined formation viable but more restricted than other Aspects - but that is compensated for by First Strike and slightly better mobility (20cms rather than 15cms).

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

I'm a background player, so this is the approach I take to army composition and rule changes, although the latter also has to be governed by internal and external balance, as in narrative terms, all the armies are, of course, unbeatable .

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So would my suggested alerations in movement fit your 'fluff' perspective?

Also, perhaps you could expand on just how the Warp Spiders are expected to behave from the 'fluff'. For instance do they work in the centre of the battlefield, surviving the inevitable hail of lead, or are they more circumspect scouts operating on the edge of the battlefield, waiting for an opportunity to pick on some unsuspecting target?

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I think an increased movement distance would fit the background, since they are more mobile than their current movement value gives them credit for in my view.  Twenty-five centimetres, or perhaps twenty, seems pretty reasonable to me.

In terms of the background Warp Spiders are a very dangerous hit and run unit, which are designed to materialise out of nowhere, and then make quick getaways using their Warp Jump Generators, so they are more of a flank attack unit than a central unit, although they are as tough as Striking Scorpions in terms of their armour, so their save should not be reduced in my view.  They have never really been that great in assaults though, which is why they are supposed to be hit and run units.

They are not really scouts (in the Ranger sense of the word) either though, since they are not really a suppression unit, as they don't have a long enough range for that role, and have a lot more killing power (the Deathspinner has always been an effective anti-infantry gun, and back in Second Edition 40K it was a truly lethal weapon, whereas these days it's just a good one).

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Ok, so putting "Assassin" on their Death Spinner (in FF) while reducing it to FF5+ would also fit the 'Fluff'. Mathmatecally this would leave them just as lethal against infantry and LV targets, but slightly worse against AV, WE and Titans which would in turn tend to make them more effective on the edge of the battlefield rather than in the centre.

So in summary, this discussion suggests the following revised stats for the HBs and WS:-

Warp Spider
Move=25cm, Armour=5+, CC5+, FF5+
Death Spinner (15cm) Small Arms - First Strike, "Assassin"

Notes:- Jump Pack, Scout, "Variable armour"

"Assassin" confers -1 to enemy infantry armour.
"Variable armour" adds +1 to the armour value when in assault.


Howling Banshee
Move=20cm, Armour=5+, CC3+, FF5+
Shuriken Pistols (15cm) Small Arms
Banshee Mask (Base Contact) Assault Weapons - First Strike, "Assassin"

Notes:- Infiltrator, "Variable armour"

"Assassin" confers -1 to enemy infantry armour.
"Variable armour" adds +1 to the armour value when in assault.

There are several objectives behind these stats:-

• Warp Spiders become less good against AV, WE and Titans and also less survivable.
  
• Howling Banshees become more lethal against infantry and more survivable.
  
• Their respective movement capacities are adjusted to make them viable as a combined formation.
  
• Warp Spiders still lose Wave Serpent and Falcon transport  capabilities (for the present at least).

So how does this all stack up?? And yes I know it has 'special rules' at least in the notes , but apart from that gripe, will these revisions make the Warp Spiders sufficiently less attractive, and the Howling Banshees more so?

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

Let's try and find a solution that doesn't invent any new special rules. There are plenty of good options that don't need one, let alone two new special rules.

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Well, I agree with this much.  



10cm faster than they are now, huh (unless the NetEA Eldar Compendium is lying to me?  



OK...no.  Warp Spiders have power armor.  That's a 4+ save.  



OK.  Makes a lot of sense.  



Uh...why?  Space Marines with bolters have 4+.  Predator Destructors have 4+.  You evidently feel a gun that blasts forth a giant monomolecular web is roughly equal to a bunch of assault specialists with their pistols.  

I think you may be overcompensating.  



I'm not a big fan of inventing a new ability (also, the obvious term would be "Anti-Infantry").  Even in that case - trying to over-detail Epic seems an unwise idea.  At the assault level, things get kinda abstract.  That's OK.  



Why would they have variable armor, anyway?  I'm not 100% convinced by Scout, but I'll buy it as the area in which the Warp Spiders can make hit-and-run attacks with minimal consequence, thus forcing the enemy to keep a wider berth.  And it gives the Banshees a chance at Infiltrator.  

Both the abilities add a layer of finicky I'm not comfortable with.  Special abilities aren't very common in assaults in Epic, and that's one of the strengths of the system (IMO).  



That's pretty fast...I'd lean toward keeping them at 15cm, myself.  



Armour 5+ is fine.  But since they only have Armour 5+ because of their amazing dodginess, giving them an additional bonus in Assault is excessive - especially since they have First Strike already.  Variable armor simply isn't justified.  



Assassin sort of works, but it's...finicky.  Inelegant.  

Trying to really, really focus units to be good against infantry or armor at close range doesn't work in Epic.  The Predator Destructor and the Predator Annihilator have the same FF value.  They have completely different battlefield roles.  If the Banshees can't beat out Scorpions with CC3+, give 'em CC2+.  If that won't do it, give 'em a MW.  If that won't do it, there's not really much to be done, because those are the options available for representing such things in Epic.

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I would not see the need to take Warp Spiders if they don't have FF 4+.

I thought I had gone through the entire gamut of existing options, so which have I missed?

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Sir Hemry Newbolt

To what extent does the Warp Spider transport exclusion limit their proliferation though? Compared to other aspects they are effectively limited to use via Webway Portals or Vampires as speed is not their greatest asset. They also seem to be more popular in mono-aspect formations which is more of a limiting factor on getting enough models for Biel-Tan's 8 strong formations.