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Howling Banshee Poll
Leave unchanged - they are Ok now 5%  5%  [ 2 ]
CC5+ EA+1, FS, with MW on separate weapon 5%  5%  [ 2 ]
CC3+ FS, Ignore Cover 5%  5%  [ 2 ]
CC3+ FS, MW (only counts as MW against Infantry) 11%  11%  [ 4 ]
CC2+ FS 57%  57%  [ 21 ]
CC4+ EA+1, FS 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
CC4+ EA+1, FS Ignore Cover 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
CC2+ FS, Ignore Cover 11%  11%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 37

Howling Banshee Poll
Chroma
 Post subject: Howling Banshee Poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:33 pm 
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(Soren @ Feb. 17 2008,13:27)
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8 Hits from banshees mean really ever nobody is striking back. a BIG difference I think. Hell the engagement is finished before the enemy even rolles a dice if you do average hits. That is worth more than a plain +1 to armor.

That's 8 *hits*; against Imperial Guardsmen in cover, that's four kills... against a bunch of Leman Russ, that's *two* kills.

Against exposed Orks or Guard (or Bugs too), you're going to be doing a lot of damage, but they tend to have the numbers to still strike back.  Against small formations, certainly you can wipe them out, but why wouldn't you use Warp Spiders to "clip" such targets instead?

The one advantage Banshees have over Spiders is that they can be transported in Falcons and Wave Serpents, so I suppose that's something that must be added to the equation.

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Soren
 Post subject: Howling Banshee Poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:33 pm 
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2 normal 2+ attacks are still awesome good. Few armies even have the chance to include such units, at least none of the core lists.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Howling Banshee Poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:35 pm 
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(Ginger @ Feb. 17 2008,13:30)
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The exarch question is interesting, because I am assuming that FS would remain on the weapon, thus giving 8x FS attacks, and 2x 'normal' attacks if you follow the letter of the rules strictly, causing a small subtle change in the assault resolution.

Ah, yes, you're right about that... hrm...

So that's 6.6 first strike hits by the Banshees.

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Soren
 Post subject: Howling Banshee Poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:38 pm 
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So you have to choose your attacks more wisely than with other aspects. I don?t see a problem with that. If you want No-brainers, choose other aspects. Eldar have so much choices, it is IMPOSSIBLE to balance them through the line. And the 2+ FS is a good choice if you know what you do )(and WHEN to strike)

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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshee Poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:40 pm 
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(Chroma @ Feb. 17 2008,13:27)
QUOTE

(Ginger @ Feb. 17 2008,13:22)
QUOTE
This is s straw poll intended to gauge opinion on the desired increase to the basic power of Banshees

I'd *really* like to hear from the person who voted that Banshees "are OK now"! ?*laugh*

So would I *laugh* :laugh:

And I also agree with the need for play-testing; preferably using several of the suggested options (which should not be considered fixed at this point by any means). Soren's point on the effect of increasing FS power is spot on IMO, and one of the concerns I expressed on the impact to the game.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Howling Banshee Poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:42 pm 
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(Soren @ Feb. 17 2008,13:38)
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So you have to choose your attacks more wisely than with other aspects. I don?t see a problem with that. If you want No-brainers, choose other aspects. Eldar have so much choices, it is IMPOSSIBLE to balance them through the line. And the 2+ FS is a good choice if you know what you do )(and WHEN to strike)

I'm not saying it's not a good choice, I'm asking if people will actually *choose* it.

Put it in this context: Would you take Howling Banshees in any of your Aspect formations when going to a tournament with cool prizes on the line?

For fun games, I think the change to CC2+ will be fine, but I *still* don't think they're fully competitive with the other Aspects.

As an aside, the Banshee Masks should probably have a note, just like the Fusion Guns, that they add first strike to the CC attacks of the Banshee unit, allowing the Exarchs to also first strike

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Soren
 Post subject: Howling Banshee Poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:52 pm 
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@Chroma: Every army has choices you would not choose in Tournaments. I would never take Predators with me, nor vindies or even Devas IF I would go to a tourney. But they have their job to do, so that?s not really a reason for me to change them. Tournies are about min-maxing and I strongly suggest NOT to build all fixes to bow before tournament choices but to exterminate flaws and unjustified rules to make a list going.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshee Poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:06 pm 
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@Chroma - although I presume your thought on the masks is intended to make playing Banshees easier, I think I would prefer to leave them alone to make a slight distinction from other Aspects. If a player is really concerned, he can allways add two WS exarchs to the Banshees to get the extra FS attacks while keeping the Exarch safer.

@Soren - to some extent I agree with your point about tournamnet armies, but not entirely. For example I have seriously considered putting predators in a Landing craft to provide major firepower to clear the landing zone. Add Assault Marines and Devastators with dreadnoughts to the mix and you have a specialist team for the job :D

Your point is that their profile makes them quite specialist, and thus less suited to tournament lists (which is true). The question we should be asking is what proportion of the time they are used at all. If it is minimal (as in the case of the Banshees), then they really do need some attention

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Chroma
 Post subject: Howling Banshee Poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:28 pm 
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(Ginger @ Feb. 17 2008,14:06)
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@Chroma - although I presume your thought on the masks is intended to make playing Banshees easier, I think I would prefer to leave them alone to make a slight distinction from other Aspects. If a player is really concerned, he can allways add two WS exarchs to the Banshees to get the extra FS attacks while keeping the Exarch safer.

My concern is that Howling Banshee Exarchs in, *sigh*, 40k *do* "first strike", I'm not sure why they wouldn't also do that in EPIC.

It's just a minor point I thought I'd bring up.

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zombocom
 Post subject: Howling Banshee Poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:29 pm 
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I think a note that banshee masks give FS to all CC attacks is a pretty good idea. Exarchs shuld benefit from the rule.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshee Poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:50 pm 
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Understood guys - perhaps this is one of those occasions we put it down to the different game mechanics; otherwise we might just have to consider whether the ladies are left handed, right handed or ambidexterous  *laugh*

Seriously though, this is a bit cosmetic for the moment until we have sorted out the more fundemental mechanics of the unit / formation, and how it performs in general.

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Howling Banshee Poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:49 pm 
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There's no option for a single FS MW 4+ attack, which is probably my favourite option.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshee Poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:32 pm 
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(Lord Inquisitor @ Feb. 17 2008,19:49)
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There's no option for a single FS MW 4+ attack, which is probably my favourite option.

Yup - ommitted by mistake, sorry ?:blush: though having said that, it is also amoung the weakest options, and is statistically weaker than the original CC3+ FS profile

(Ginger @ Feb. 17 2008,01:38)
QUOTE
I was trying to keep the options simple at this point to gauge general opinion This is s straw poll intended to gauge opinion on the desired increase to the basic power of Banshees, and to get some idea of views on the popularity or otherwise of the three basic power options:-
- Strong single attack
- Weaker double attack
- use "Infantry MW" note.

In a few days I want to try a second poll to cover off increased movement and "additional capabilities" against the more popular power options from this poll (and will include the single CC4+ MW option - promise ? :) . So if you find it difficult to choose between two options, vote for one and list the other in the thread

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Soren
 Post subject: Howling Banshee Poll
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:14 am 
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I think the poll shows pretty good the way we should push the little girls :)




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Moscovian
 Post subject: Howling Banshee Poll
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:11 pm 
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You could put 20 options up on the poll and I think the results would look very much like they do right now. :D

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