The titan lists are fun because there's a lot of variety in minis and roles despite the restrictions. With a 1:1 wraith to non-wraith ratio, you'd be asking people to dig up two dozen monopose, hard-to-get wraithguard stands or wraithlords. Maybe 10 people would play it.

Given the fluff limitations on their awareness and responsiveness, and how slow they are, I couldn't really imagine Iyanden using that high a wraith construct ratio. They probably make up 80% of Iyanden's standing army, but in offensive operations would make up a smaller proportion. It might be limited by how many spiritseers there are. The 6th edition 40k Iyanden codex supplement makes several references to aspect warriors and guardians in post-Kraken battles, and armor is probably even more significant. The Eldar get to pick most of their battles, after all. They'll take specialists whenever possible, which is most of the time if there isn't a major war on.

The big thing about having a high percentage of Wraith constructs as part of your list is the cost per formation and the lack of any variety if this is forced.

The way around this is to look for cheaper Wraith costs either in smaller formation sizes or by lowering the cost of the wraiths and therefore their stats. It would be a big change from the last ten years but should we actually look at Wraithguard being Armour 5+RA, shooting being 1 MW 5+ & FF being MW with no extra cost.

Big question, but now is the time to discuss with active B-T & Iyanden testing on going.

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I don't necessarily disagree regarding the ratio, but would ask Glyn to propose how he would create a 'balanced' Iyanden list under this constraint, in such a way that does not impact the other Eldar lists.

Like Mordoten, if forced to chose I would always go for playability and 'fun' over 'fluff', in line with the underlying E:A list design principles; any list must be 'balanced, and both fun to play with and to play against.

@Tim
That would be a huge change, possibly enabling a reasonably large reduction in costs, which in turn might make other options viable. However doing this would definitely need changes to other Eldar lists (extremely painfull) unlike just juggling with formation sizes and costs in the Iyanden.

That said, the biggest issues in the Iyanden list seems to be the delivery mechanisms of the Wraith formations and their formation size rather than their intrinsic abilities. With a delivery mechanism they can deliver a lethal strike, but once on the ground they are easy to avoid or break, and rarely rally.

Tim, interesting notion and a discussion would be warranted. I think Carlisimo109 point on the availability of a large amount of WG minis would have to factor in at some point.

Ginger I agree with you that the delivery system for wraith formations is of critical importance to the list and needs further testing. I don't think a discussion about wraith stats would be bad idea as there have been times I have wondered if WG stats were right. But I do recognise they are certainly a entrenched unit in many eldar lists.

Mic

Hi, been away for a little while but managed a game with the Iyanden yesterday.
Some thoughts/questions (some of these have been said before ...)
Army List.
Why not move the whole paragraph on the Wraithseer to the Individuals section? Instead of writing down "...replace spiritseer..." 3 times you could write it in one place.
1:2 ratio is much more fun. Now you could do some variations on the build. My core list has three Wraith formations and 4-5 troups.
Is it the intent that you could take less Waveserpents then necessary to transport all wraithguards. Right now it says "add up to enough transports..." and unless I'm translating it wrong that means that I could add one.
The Wraithseer. In the notes the reference is to a Spiritseer, should be Wraithseer I guess.
Also why does it say "May summon the Avatar"? In the rules for the Avatar this is already taken care of.
The Singing spear has the rules for assault and small arms on different rows when comparing the Wraithseer and the Spiritseer. Looks a little bit odd to me
The Farseer has an empty row in the top...
When did the Vampire change back to be able to take 8 wraithguard? Missed this in my last battle but in the next one I will take a full load to try it out. Not sure this is a good thing, now that they come in 4.

I actually lost a Spiritseer in an assault and thus didn't make it to safety in the move afterwords so the Animated Construct rule did get used one time at least

Still think the Wraithblades is "useless". No FF and very similar role to the Wraithlords in CC but a lot worse other times. Can only think of some extreme examples when they are better then ordinary wraithguards (When assaulting a fully shielded gargant or some good FF/bad CC units) every other situation they are crap. 15 cm move and no shooting makes them boring for me. Sorry.

4 units strong formations is still very easy to break. I'm trying them but often find myself regretting not pumping them up to 6 units.

I'm in favor of trying out some of Tiny-Tims suggestions. If that would make them cheaper
What other armies would that be "extremely painful" for? I have only seen them fielded a couple of times to buff guardians and then it was in pairs and to soak damage. 5+RA would still do that... Perhaps I play against to few other eldar players but 95% of the lists I see is without Wraithguards (I see mostly Biel-Tan)

Thanks for the good work!

G’day Uvenlord

Great to hear you had another game and I appreciate your feedback.



Done



hmm your right but why would anyone want to add just one?




Done



This wording is in line with the BT list and as result from a discussion on that thread.



Done




The intent is for there to be only 4 Wraithguard/ Wraithblade in a Vampire. I have checked the wording and here all good.



So in hindsight whats your take on the AC rule?




I appreciate your honesty. Absolutely is the lack of FF is a problem for the Wraithblade. I have had several games with them recently (batreps coming) and they did well, I had them as the core element with both WG and WL attached storming out of gates. But I am open to keep taking on what people are feeding back about them.



What do other people think? I guess I am hoping to see some discussion and debate on this topic before possibly adjusting stats.

I'll post up the adjusted list shortly. Ok done

Cheers

Mic

I think changing the stats would be a really bad idea. Play around with formation sizes and costs by all means, but don't start fiddling with stats for a unit that appears in a number of different lists.

A 4 stand formation of wraithguards is weaker of course. But the 6 stand one is a nightmare to deal with for opponents. Don't put them in a vampire if 4 is to few...

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Another Batrep viewtopic.php?f=84&t=29055&p=559945#p559945

Mic

Thanks for the quick "fixes"

About the Vampire. In my version (that is also labeled 4.2) that I printed a couple of days ago there was no mention of Wraithguards counting as two units. Now that seems to be fixed. You could still take 8 Wraithblades the way it is written though The wording before and that I was wondering about was the same as in the Biel-tan playtesting list.

(Just for clarity could we please use the numbers when we have them So this release could perhaps be labeled 4.2.1 if it was a small change or 4.3 if it was a big change? I tend to print the list for easy access during the games and right now there are at least two lists with the same version number(?) )

I see no real "threat" for people just taking one or two Waveserpents just thought it looked inconsistent with other lists.

If the double mentioning of the Avatar rule is going to stay you may want to add a couple of "the" It now reads "May summon Avatar" on most notes. Not "May summon the Avatar" No biggie

I think the Animated Construct rule is ok. It won't have a big impact but it doesn't do any harm and it adds a little flavour.

Classic conservative thinking, just like always
Didn't get the last part (if it was aimed at anything I wrote...?) I'm trying out the smaller formations just to test them and shared my experience but I did't put them in Vampires...

Will try to get another game with the yellow fellas in a week or two depending on when the Mordot has some spare time

Fellas,

I'm trying to decide on a list to start with for the Iyanden, I've got all of these models laying around but im not sure what to build first to just get up and running with the army to get a good feel / learn more about the army.

So i was hoping for a bit of feed back on which of the 3 lists you find most viable...


List #1

Incompertus, 2990 POINTS
Iyanden Craftworld (4.2)
==================================================

AVATAR [0]

WRAITHGATE [50]

ENGINE OF VAUL TROUPE [250]
Storm Serpent

SPIRIT WRAITHLORD WARHOST [450]
6x Wraithlord units, Wraithseer

SPIRIT WRAITHGUARD WARHOST [325]
4x Wraithguard units, Spiritseer, Wraithguard

SPIRIT WRAITHBLADE WARHOST [325]
4x Wraithblade units, Spiritseer, 2 Wraithguard

RANGER TROUPE [100]
4 Ranger

SWORDS OF VAUL TROUPE [265]
2 Falcons, 2 Fire Storm, Fire Prism

NIGHT SPINNER TROUPE [175]
3x Night Spinner units

ENGINE OF VAUL TROUPE [250]
Cobra

PHOENIX BOMBERS [325]
3x Phoenix Bombers

NIGHT SPINNER TROUPE [175]
3x Night Spinner units

VAMPIRE RAIDER [200]

RANGER TROUPE [100]
4 Ranger

=============
List #2

Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Iyanden Craftworld (4.2)
==================================================

WRAITHGATE [50]

AVATAR [0]

SPIRIT WRAITHGUARD WARHOST [325]
4x Wraithguard units, Spiritseer, Wraithguard

SPIRIT WRAITHGUARD WARHOST [375]
4x Wraithguard units, Spiritseer, 2 Wraithguard

SPIRIT WRAITHGUARD WARHOST [375]
4x Wraithguard units, Spiritseer, 2 Wraithguard

SPIRIT WRAITHLORD WARHOST [450]
6x Wraithlord units, Wraithseer

RANGER TROUPE [100]
4 Ranger

RANGER TROUPE [100]
4 Ranger

PHOENIX BOMBERS [325]
3x Phoenix Bombers

SWORDS OF VAUL TROUPE [250]
3 Falcons, 2 Fire Storm

VAMPIRE RAIDER [200]

VAMPIRE RAIDER [200]

ENGINE OF VAUL TROUPE [250]
Storm Serpent


====================
List #3

Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Iyanden Craftworld (4.2)
==================================================

WRAITHGATE [50]

AVATAR [0]

SPIRIT WRAITHGUARD WARHOST [325]
4x Wraithguard units, Spiritseer, Wraithguard

SPIRIT WRAITHGUARD WARHOST [375]
4x Wraithguard units, Spiritseer, 2 Wraithguard

SPIRIT WRAITHLORD WARHOST [450]
6x Wraithlord units, Wraithseer

RANGER TROUPE [100]
4 Ranger

SWORDS OF VAUL TROUPE [250]
3 Falcons, 2 Fire Storm

ENGINE OF VAUL TROUPE [250]
Storm Serpent

REVENANT TITANS [650]
2 Revenant Titans

PHOENIX BOMBERS [325]
3x Phoenix Bombers

SPIRIT WRAITHBLADE WARHOST [225]
4x Wraithblade units, Spiritseer

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So played Iyanden vs DoK (EUK) with the following:
Avatar
Wraithguard + Wraithseer
Wraithguard + 1 Wraithguard & Wave Serpents
Wraithguard & Wave Serpents
Wraithblades
SoV – Falcons & Fire Storms (2)
SoV – Falcons & Fire Storms (2)
Rangers (5)
Vampire Raider
Pheonix Bombers

Blades came in via the Raider and took out a formation of Macharicus. Main problem was two failed first turn activations Wraithguard (BTS) & Falcons which meant that turn two the Iyanden engagements were not as over powering as they could have been and most bounced off the larger DoK formations. Poor to hit rolls and saves from me.
We called the game when we rolled a turn 5 and the Iyanden only had one fully functional formation whilst the DoK had only lost the Macharius, a Shadowsword, one AA formation and one Thunderbolt from each formation.

Up weaponed Wraithblades certainly work, might try them in Wave Serpents next. Wraithguard in Wave Serpents should work, but didn’t for me in this game. DoK are still hard as nails when Gorgons make their saves.

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Out of curiosity, how do you people model Wraithblades? Are there any suitable proxies?

I made mine by cutting off the gun, slicing that piece in two and reattaching the pieces vertically at an angle from each other.