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Howling Banshees
clausewitz
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:19 pm 
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(Ginger @ Feb. 17 2008,01:03)
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Basically Banshees in their current form are so far below the level of these other Aspects that they just are not worth considering because they are outperformed on virtually every level. Here, it seems generally accepted that they need to have a slight overall increase in power, possibly skewed in favour of one target type, wilst leaving their armour and speed unchanged (at least for now). The question is just how much of a boost is needed?

IMO, it may be possible to provide some capacity to distinguish between Infantry, Armour and Reinforced Armour though it is hard and some mechanics become quite subtle. Opinion seems to favour trying for an anti-infantry specialist, and I think that any of these will provide this
  • Adding the "infantry MW" to the current stats
    Boosts the power and specialisation even though like you I have reservations about adding a special note to the stats.
  • CC4+ EA+1, FS
    This is both marginally more powerfull and has a wider range of results than CC2+ FS (though I am biased here) :). Adding Ignore Cover to the FS attack is distinctly possibility but may just make them OTT against Infantry
  • CC2+ FS
    This is better all round than CC3+. Adding Ignore Cover is distinctly possibility but may just make them OTT against Infantry. However it does have the merit that it avoids the special note and MW
Ok, lets have a go at setting up a straw poll to check general views.

Ginger, I do agree with your arguments that Banshees are generally not as good as other aspects (CC First Strike is a specialisation that is far less often useful than the other specialisations; like FF FS as you mentioned).

My worry is that this is because Aspect Warriors are extremely good, not that banshees are particularly bad (how much better would assault marines be with FS?).

[FYI, I'm not an ardent anti-eldar proponent.  I have an Eldar army, in fact its my only fully painted army.  I even have some banshees.  But I find that the army is probably slightly too good at the moment.  I find it much easier to win with Eldar than IG, Marines, Orks, or Tau.  So my concern is that if Banshees become good enough to warrant replacing one of the current preferred aspects that it will mean that it is because the changes make the whole formation better, ergo boosting the list as a whole, albeit slightly, when that is the opposite of what I think it needs.]

However, if changes can be made that find a better niche for banshees, without making them another boost to the Eldar list in general, I have no objection to that.  I just thought I had to sound a note of caution as some of the ideas being thrown around looked dangerously powerful to me.  I like the Eldar army, but I don't like playing games where my opponent feels he is at a distinct disadvantage because he is against the Eldar.

A poll is a good idea.  :)
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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:55 pm 
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Keeping their power down is one of the reasons I actually favour adding the "Infantry MW" to the existing stats - essentially it provides a modest power increase compared with some of the other ideas and more importantly makes them distinctly anti-infantry specialists as it would also combine the Ignore Cover element that I am very keen on.

To my mind we will possibly be getting things to the right level when people have to pause in deciding upon which Aspect or combination to use, and start to consider the formation that best suits the intended operation or strategy.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:46 pm 
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Ok, the poll is showing a marked prefernce for increasing the power of the unit, and for a strong single strike rather than the other options.

I propose to put up another poll that looks similar to test the possible inclusion of other capabilities to make the formation more mobile and more infantry-specialist. This will include the other options (at least in part because I have misgivings about the implications of the 2+ statistics), but is limited to 10 possibilities. Do you want to test anything apart from the following (if so I will have to ditch one) :-

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? CC4+, FS, Infiltrate, MW
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? CC3+, FS, Infiltrate, Ignore Cover
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? CC3+, FS, Infiltrate, MW (Note MW only counts against Infantry)
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? CC2+, FS
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? CC2+, FS, Infiltrate
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? CC2+, FS, Ignore Cover
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? CC2+, FS, Infiltrate, Ignore Cover
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? CC4+, FS, EA+1
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? CC4+, FS, EA+1, Ignore Cover
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Some other option (please specify)

Note,
1) If you don't like the options presented, please vote "something else".
2) For "Infiltrate", read increased mobility. This could be 20cm movement if play tests indicate that Infiltrate is too good.

Finally, please think carefully before we go down this path :-
- Is it too powerfull?
- What would I do if faced with this formation, can I ignore it?
- Will it be "fun" to play against?
- Can I combine it with other Aspects, and should I?
- Can it be easily explained (concept and mechanics)?




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zombocom
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:53 pm 
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Actually Ginger, I think the poll isn't showing "a marked prefernce for increasing the power of the unit, and for a strong single strike", it's showing a very clear preference for CC2+, FS. No further poll is neccesary.

As a side note, the "MW against infantry" note is fairly unsustainable, as it requires the hits from banshees to be pooled and applied seperately from other hits. Although it's likely they'll be the only first strike hits in the assault it's not impossible that there could be others, leading to the requirement to pool and apply them seperately, which is not covered in the rules.

It'd need a whole special rule, not just a note.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:02 pm 
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(zombocom @ Feb. 18 2008,16:53)
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Actually Ginger, I think the poll isn't showing "a marked prefernce for increasing the power of the unit, and for a strong single strike", it's showing a very clear preference for CC2+, FS. No further poll is neccesary.

Well, certain choices were lacking from the poll, and those missing options have even been mentioned in the thread... and since this is just "straw-polling" to understand where people are coming from, how does another poll hurt?

I'm actually quite surprised the CC2+, FS option is winning so handily, so I have definitely valued from this poll.

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:04 pm 
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Ginger, what about CC3+, FS and Infiltrate?
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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:41 pm 
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(zombocom @ Feb. 18 2008,16:53)
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As a side note, the "MW against infantry" note is fairly unsustainable, as it requires the hits from banshees to be pooled and applied seperately from other hits. Although it's likely they'll be the only first strike hits in the assault it's not impossible that there could be others, leading to the requirement to pool and apply them seperately, which is not covered in the rules.

It'd need a whole special rule, not just a note.
It may require a little extra thought - but we already have to use the separate pool for MW hits, so I don't see any real issue here. Eg throw different coloured dice for the Banshee (as you would for any MW weapon) and allocate them as usual. Where a "Banshee hit" is allocated to infantry it becomes an auto-kill, where it is allocated to an Armoured Vehicle, test as usual.

Regarding the poll, there were so many variations on the theme flying around, I wanted to try to whittle things down to some more practical options. I am less surprised about the strong showing of CC2+ given that people had expressed missgivings about both the IMW note and the "complexity" of the extra attack. It is in human / wargamer's nature both to desire "Bigga Gunz" and "Somfink simple" if you know what I mean :p My concern about the CC2+ and double attack options is that they are a significant increase, which together with FS and the ability to assault from off-table will make it very potent indeed (right circumstances etc of course and yes, you can do similar things with the other Aspects) - so how does it measure up??

While KISS is a very good in principle, a little complexity is no bad thing if it achieves the correct goals - after all we are playing an adult game not W40K :D ?- and we need to strike the balance between playability, increased power and "fun" (for both Eldar and opponent). And even if we do kick out some plausible option, it will need to be play-tested etc.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:44 pm 
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(clausewitz @ Feb. 18 2008,17:04)
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Ginger, what about CC3+, FS and Infiltrate?

Added

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zombocom
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:43 pm 
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(Ginger @ Feb. 18 2008,17:41)
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It may require a little extra thought - but we already have to use the separate pool for MW hits, so I don't see any real issue here. Eg throw different coloured dice for the Banshee (as you would for any MW weapon) and allocate them as usual. Where a "Banshee hit" is allocated to infantry it becomes an auto-kill, where it is allocated to an Armoured Vehicle, test as usual.

Fine, but that would require a special rule to explain that, not just a note of "macro vs infantry".

I definately don't think fixing banshees is worth creating a new special rules for, when there are perfectly good (and more popular!) ways of fixing them.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:14 pm 
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While KISS is a very good in principle, a little complexity is no bad thing if it achieves the correct goals - after all we are playing an adult game not W40K :D  


W40k is very complex, moreso than Epic IMHO.

It's just that the end result is very simplistic. :)

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zombocom
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:16 pm 
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I think you're misunderstanding the difference between complicated and complex...

40k is complicated, Epic is complex.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:18 pm 
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No, I was trying to make a joke and now you've ruined it by being anal. :(

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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:33 pm 
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Don't get me wrong zombocom, I am not discounting any option at present, especially the more popular one (and anyway, Chroma has that unenviable job :p ).

Think of this as a form of Brainstorming exercise for now, where we are trying to evaluate the various options and gauge opinion on the best way to provide sufficient improvement without going OTT (which is very easy).

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Moscovian
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:41 pm 
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(zombocom @ Feb. 18 2008,14:16)
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I think you're misunderstanding the difference between complicated and complex...

40k is complicated, Epic is complex.

I wish I had room for about 20 sigs... This would be one of them along with PG's frowny face commentary.  :laugh:

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:06 pm 
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So ignore cover is totally out then? I thought that was a good idea, assuming people play that cover works in assaults - I sure thought it did.

I think MW, +1EA, and infiltrator would all be perceived as too much of a boost by players who don't frequent these rules discussions ... and perception matters alot.

Why not CC2+ FS ignore cover? sure, it might be "too good" at killing things that banshees "aren't supposed to be good at" but at least they'd be both useful and distinct from the other aspects. Being distinct from the other aspects seems as important to me as being equivalently powered.
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