From PFE100

Stat changes

1) General Eldar units have been brought into line with Biel-Tan v 4.2

2) Hornet has had its AT3+ go to AT4+

3) Vampire Hunter has its stats fixed

4) Farseer character has been added.

5) Siam Hann Wild Rider Chieftain has been added.

6) Siam Hann Wild Riders has been added.



Structural changes

1) Add three Jetbikes for +75 points (may not be taken more than twice).

2) “Add three Shining Spears for +100 points” upgrade has been removed from the Wind rider clan host

3) Hornet troupe has been given upgrade.

4) Vampire Hunter formation sized changed and points change.

5) Aspect Warrior Troupe has had the shinning spear removed.

6) War walker troupe added to troupe section.

7) You may select up to Two Troupes per Warhost.

No Phantoms or Warlock Titans



Move the following to the special rules section and called it Aspect Rule:



All Aspect Warrior units in the Saim-Hann Craftworld army, apart from Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders, must be transported in Wave Serpents and/or Falcons. You must take exactly enough transport vehicles to carry the units that require transport, without any spare transport space being left over………



Update 4.2.1



Ok changes to the 4.2.1 are as follows…



1) Fixed any typos found.

2) Hornet formation is now 4 for 200 and only one upgrade

3) Expert rider rule added…(Wording may need to be tweaked)..

4) SR went from 3 to 4.

5) Rangers/War Walker removed..

6) Wind Rider Host has been added to the troupe section and a limit of 0-1 per Wild rider clan.

7) Stat change to Fire prism cannon

Fire prism is a free upgrade in SoV

9) Change the may not garrison rule, since Rangers and War Walker are out

10) Drop the point of the Farseer character.

11) Guardian Host was given the ability to add a Farseer character, as a upgrade option..





Update 4.2.2



• Guardian host was renamed to Guardian troupe

• Wind Rider Host was renamed to Scout Rider Troupe.

• Change upgrades option in Scout Rider Troupe.

• Scout Rider Troupe point adjustment from 200 to 175

• New unit add to the stats section called Scout Rider Jetbikes

• Update the special rule section. With change of names for the garrison rule and the Expert rider too.



Changes made on the following(These changes appear in update PDF)

· Rolled the fire prism back to be the same as in the BT4.2, stats wise and cost wise

· Hornet had change to weapon…which is now Twin Hornet Pulse Laser 30cm 2 x AT4+

· Also remove ranger and walker unit stats.

Correct attachment added

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NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Regarding requesting Approval Status.
I know I have been not posted my battle reports (I have played 3 games with the Siam-Hann list, mostly stress testing the Wild Rider Clan Warhost points cost with the invulnerable save (played against Ork, Gargant and Knight lists). I promise I will post these this month.

That being said there are several units that have not received much play testing and have had recent changes made to them so I am surprised that approval is being sought at this point. Additionally, while PFE100 is a prolific player/poster of batreps (and for that I want to thank him immensely as I have enjoyed reading his batreps many a night), we need multiple sources of feedback to ensure consensus and fair testing. The last thing I want is an opponent feeling like the list they face is unbalanced.

I do plan to playtest and field this army. Although my personal belief is that there are to many invulnerable/reinforced/fearless units being brought into the mix with the new armies being developed, I have put that aside due to the directional inertia with this list (my personal preference/belief is that the Siam-Hann ability/background of maneuverability/speed would be better represented by removing Mounted from the Jetbike units and giving the Vypers Walker to bring a more unique/different playstyle to this army of hit and run and maneuverability while maintaining the Eldars glass cannon specialist play style (vs the invulnerable save direction the list has taken)).

Here are some of the areas that I feel need more scrutiny/playtest:
-Wilder Rider Clan Warhost point cost (feel it might be a tad overcosted *personal opinion due lack of making invulnerable saves, simple fix would be to fold in the Farseer for free or make the Farseer a extra unit vs character for +25 points)
-Hornets Troup point cost to stats (feel the stats are about right as are the point cost but would want to playtest, additionally the unit size (4-5 or 4-6))
- Siam-Hann Scout Troup point cost and composition, specifically composition (limit of 0-2 Siam-Hann Vypers is not needed as unit self regulates for garrisoning purposes and therefore is a non issue) (the change in points, as far as I can tell, has happened in the last month with 1-2 games played with it. I feel more testing is needed to bear out a drop to 175 points)
- Vampire Hunter point cost of 275 I feel is high given the Scorpion is 250 points (for various reasons I believe the Vampire Hunter should be costed at 250 points as the Scorpion is a better choice imo at the moment).

All of the above I feel needs to be playtested more. I plan on doing so. My Hornets and Vampire Hunter are in the process of being painted. Games will be played and batreps reported on in Feb and March.

Tiny-Tim
Looks like we posted at the same time.
Please note that there are several corrections that need to be made to the 4.2.2 document that should be updated (see my earlier post today) in order to clean it up for the approvers.

I am a little amused at the way the development has gone.

Originally Jetbike armour was 4+. The 6x strong Jetbike formation cost 200 points and was both reasonable and balanced IMO.

Around 6-8 years ago I took one of my 'experimental' armies to Britcon, comprising 3x guardian formations in WS, a formation of Shining Spears and 8x Jetbike formations each with a Vyper. This caused a number of raised eyebrows (though I came last as usual).

Shortly after this the Jetbike armour was dropped to 5+, the main argument being that 4+ armour made the (as yet unknown) Saim-Hann list too powerful, so the Jetbike stats for all lists had to be nerfed for consistency.

Yet here we are going for approval with armour that is rather better than the original, and also a points drop on the 'scout' Jetbike formation which also has improved abilities over the original formation.

So, what has changed here to bring us pretty much full circle?
And why not revert to the original Jetbike stats across all lists?
You know it makes sense

From PFE100

Hi Paradox,

Look forward to the reports and thanks for reading the AAR I have done…So everyone knows I was effected by the sever glitch on the 11th Feb. I’m currently waiting on account activation and yes I’m relying on Tim’s help at the moment, to post items and keep the approval rolling along as best it can…..

I will try and cover things that you have posted…. so let start with the “expert rider rule”

I used the “expert rider rule” so that I would not have double entries in the data bases that Dave’s, doing for the TP... I.e. Siam-Hann Vyper and then a Vyper. Which will just lead to issue down the track and they are the same unit after all, with extra note add to one. So it’s easier in the long run to have the rule in place...So if a change is needed, then I only need to change one spot and not two+….Dave only needs to change it in one spot in the data bases….Done and less likely to have mistaken happen..

May Not Garrison rule is currently been looked at, I would rather have the rule uniformed across all list and not have different versions since it will lead to confusion…

The wording that you want change on the Wild Rider Clan, again it’s pretty close to wants been used in the approve lists in the TP...But in saying that, Dave will get me to check it again or if it sounds funny he will say so.

Sword of Vaul- Document that was uploaded was the wrong one, and the Fire Prism changes should show on the new reload PDF….

Hornets- Size of the Hornet formation has been set at max of 5 and testing has shown that seems to work fine…

Scout Rider Troupe- I chose this name since it allow me to use the same formation again in a different list, down the track and not end up with double entry in the TP data base, but the one you have suggested may work…I will think about it...The new points for the troupe has had 11+ games played..

Vampire Hunter- IMHO these guys are better than the Scorpion…The ability to reach anywhere on the table, should not be underrated….

Regarding submission for Approval Status- Before I even made the announcement; I spoke to ERC of this section, Tiny Tim….Now Tim has use the list and I would say if there was issue with it going for approval, he would have said “No sorry it’s not ready yet” and gave me a list of concern….Yes I have made it habit to keep Tim in the loop, ever since I took over the AC role….

Thanks for the feedback and concerns..

Regards

Greg

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NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

as i would love to second this, wouldn't this create to much unrest again with all the other lists?

my completely painted saim hann await their fielding fully approved

Managed a batrep on the weekend.

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31019

Cheers

Mic

Have had several games against this list (Paradox should be posting the Battle reports soon). In each game the formations of Wildriders (13 strong with a few vipers mixed in for frontal 4+ armour) are monstrously powerful. They win most engagements because of how crazy fast they are. They have a 85cm effective supporting range. Triple retains and full move consolidation on 13 unit strong formations that moves 35cm is nutz! And that's not even getting into the added portaling. Suggest cutting the 2x 75pt +3 jetbike upgrades for 2x 50pt +2 jetbike or even just a single upgrade of 3.

Was waiting to comment until the battle reports went up but out of the 5 games we've played I think I only won once by a hair using the Necron Raiders list. Also played two games of Sautekh Necrons, 1 with Gargants and one the War Griffons Titan Legions. lol in both titan matches I got rolled hard.

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Any chance you could post a sample list so that I can try and reciprocate the results. PFE100 is watching this, just can't get on the forums to post at the moment.

cheers,

Tim

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NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

This is what was used against me most previous (recalled roughly from memory) I know there have been small variations on previous games some involving switching one more or less formation of hornets/medium wildrider/falcons.

Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Saim-Hann Craftworld (NetEA Army Compendium v20120208)
==================================================
WILD RIDER CLAN WARHOST (LARGE) [400]
Wild Rider, 8 Jetbike, 4 Vyper
WILD RIDER CLAN WARHOST (LARGE) [475]
Wild Rider, 8 Jetbike, 4 Vyper, Wild Rider Chieftain
WILD RIDER CLAN WARHOST (MEDIUM) [325]
Wild Rider, 9 Jetbike
SHINING SPEARS ASPECT WARRIOR WARHOST [350]
8 Shining Spears, 2 Exarch
WRAITHGATE [50]
AVATAR [0]
SWORDS OF VAUL TROUPE [250]
3 Falcon, 2 Fire Storm
SWORDS OF VAUL TROUPE [250]
3 Falcon, 2 Fire Storm
HORNET TROUPE [200]
4 Hornets
HORNET TROUPE [200]
4 Hornets
SCOUT WILD RIDER CLAN WARHOST [175]
4 Jetbike, 2 Vyper
SCOUT WILD RIDER CLAN WARHOST [175]
4 Jetbike, 2 Vyper
WRAITHSHIP [150]

Now that I really look at it, whats the rational for the scout jetbike formations only costing 175pts? The standard formations without scout ability cost 250. Not sure losing one wild rider and gaining scout warrents a 75pt drop in cost. They should be at least 200 points, no?
Also we both agreed the added Inv save is silly.... so much extra rolling for generally very little pay off.

This is the list I used most recently
Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Legio Gryphonicus (NetEA v3.24 *APPROVED*)
==================================================
REAVER TITAN [625]
2 Gatling Blaster, Laser Burner
REAVER TITAN [625]
2 Gatling Blaster, Laser Burner
REAVER TITAN [700]
Apocalypse Missile Launcher, Plasma Cannon, Gatling Blaster, Legate
WARHOUND TITAN [300]
Vulcan Megabolter, Turbo-laser Destructor
WARHOUND TITAN [300]
Vulcan Megabolter, Turbo-laser Destructor
CRUSADER SCOUT MANIPLE [150]
4 Crusader Robots
THUNDERBOLT SQUADRON [150]
2 Thunderbolts
THUNDERBOLT SQUADRON [150]
2 Thunderbolts

It should be mentioned that I agreed to the hills/building groups/forests being infinitely tall (there were 4 large hills about 2cm tall and 4 standard card stock building groups, 3 forests) at the beginning of the match unthinkingly so LoS was heavily skewed in his favour. Skimmers were able to pop up shoot over but my titans were not.

Another thing that came up that makes the wildriders very potent is how extremely difficult it is to get supporting fire on them in an assault. The 10cm counter charge and the size of the formation means that you have a nonexistent window for supporting range. There are 3 situations that we've encountered; A. they counter charge out of range of your 15cm support zone. B) the counter charge into your supporting fire creating a combined assault. C) After counter charging into optimal position they can remove the few casualties from Base to Base with the primary assaulting formation in range of the support and then have support be out of range when its their turn.

Also the entire list is skimmers so anything that relies on CC is just plain useless. So many very exploitable very large bonus special rules with this being a full skimmer elder army that I don't think was fully accounted for when looking at the list as a whole as opposed to individual formations.

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PFE100 has managed to get a couple of games in

http://pfe100.blogspot.com.au/2016/04/saim-hann-craftworld-42-and-legio.html

&

http://pfe100.blogspot.com.au/2016/04/saim-hann-craftworld-42-and-legio_12.html

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NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Two great reports. I tend to find playing with the EUK list that in practise games I have the result from the first game and then in tournaments I get the second result.

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NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Siam Hann 4.2.2 vs ATML 3000pts

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31139&p=588667#p588667

Need to take more pics of games. Have couple more reports without pics for Siam Hann as well but not sure if I should bother posting. Should I?

Thoughts on the Siam Hann list. Plays as I expected. High mobility with the Hit&Run tactic is very deadly. Good synergy between the list and this ability.

Skilled Rider (ie 6+ invulnerable save) : made 3-4 for these in the game for about 15-20 roles. My opinion, lose the ability and reduce the Wildrider troops by 25pts each (about what you save by avoiding the 3-4 casulaties in the game). For simplicity sake it removes 15-20 roles in a game for the benefit of saving 3-4 fairly generic models. I know the ability did not affect in any way my choice of tactics, strategy or list choice. It was a nice to have but not necessary and at times frustrating for me to roll and for my opponent to see me roll those extra saves. Suggestions, lose the 6+ invulnerable save and fold in a farseer into each Wildrider formation for free. Works out to about the same point cost and is more thematic for Eldar.

*Again, I am going to make a plug for the Siam Hann special ability to be represented by removing Mounted from Jetbikes and giving Walker to Vypers to represent the “skilled rider” ability of the Siam Hann biker (I recognize this would necessitate a point cost review).

Wild Rider Troupe with 2 upgrades of 3 bikes. Taking a unit from 7 models to 13 models. I think is very good. Perhaps too good. Testing will tell. My though might be to limit it to one upgrade of 3 models (versus the 2 upgrades possible).

Scout Rider Troupe, don’t feel the need for the extra limit on Vypers is warranted. Either you do 3 jetbikes or more to get the garrison deployment or you don’t and go for more Vypers. Also, not convinced on the drop in points to 175 is warrented. Feel 200pts is about right.

Hornets… although they feel right in what they can do, they are materially inferior when compared to a Sword of Vaul troupe with 2 firestorms. In the future, it Hornets stay as is for the cost I will be leaving them home and loading up on formations of 3 falcons and 2 firestorms. I realize there is 50 points difference but I feel the Sword of Vaul formation is superior in versatility (range, FF, AP and AA) over the Hornets which really only have their Armor of 4+ (which is mitigated by the fact that they are LV) and Scout (which is really a only nice to have and not needed). There 40cm movement is in my opinion eclipsed by the Sword of Vauls weapon range of 45cm.

All in all it is a good list that is competitive.

More work needs to be done on balancing points cost and unit size for: Wild Riders, Scout Riders and Hornets.

Have not tested out Vampire Hunter.

10cm counter charge rule opinion: this is a universal rule and I don't see it unduly impacting/benefiting the Siam Hann list. Works for:
SM : Rhinos, Predators, Bikes, Land Speeders
IG: Chimers, Valkyries
ATML: Warhounds
Ork: Warbikes, Scorchas, Warbuggies, Battle/Flak/Gun Wagons
Eldar: Jetbikes, Vypers, Falcons...
Chaos: Rhinos, Predators, Deathwheels, Feral Titans, some Greater Demons

Just curious why you didn't opt for using the wraithgate. It adds considerable advantage for the windrider and shinning spear formations.

Game 1:
When you did the combined assault at the start of turn two why did the Eldar player place his forces so that the second reaver was in support range. The pictures make it seem like it would have been very easy to avoid. Also with the retained assault the spears could have avoided the supporting fire from the the 3rd reaver by using the second reaver (the one targeted for the second assault) to block line of sight to the spears. True you wouldn't have been able to get all the spears in base to base but so what you could avoid the firepower of another whole reaver. If you work this out statistically there is a significant probability that the elder player would have only one or no broken units and the titan player would have two (or worse) broken reavers. Why would the Eldar player opt for a barrage attack over pin point TK attacks against a titan list with the Wraithship?

Also just curious on the flak rolls against the thunderbolts, the TBolts seem to have been very lucky. The elder player must have been (or easily been able to be) in range for more than a few flak shots (for the disengages at least).

Game 2:
There seem to be several less than optimal placements for the Eldar. When the reaver activated to shoot and break the SoV, this should have been easily avoidable by deployment placement.
Placememnt for the start of the second turn could have been optimized to prevent intermingled assault. The Eldar player should be mindfull about placement of formations taking into account losing the iniaitive. This would have changed the game dramatically. Also the Eldar player was much more likely to win the iniative and in which case a similar outcome could be expected to the first game where both reavers would again have have a much higher likely hood of losing combat. Why didn't The elder player exploit the counter charge move to get out of supporting range. Where was the wraith ship? Really need to exploit that activation advantage also. The scout formations could have badly hampered the Reaver advances.
Game 2, seems to have been called due to several errors and some critical bad luck for the Eldar player.

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