Exarchs and Autarchs tend to vary depending on the aspect formation they are in. In Shining Spears, 'Hawks or 'Spiders, they will be the same type to allow the formation to work as intended, otherwise Rug is correct about the choices for other situations.

On the Banshees there are effectively two alternative solutions. Either we attempt to make them work per the 40K image (heavy infantry killers), or we try some alternative approach to creating a 'niche' for them - which I suspect most would disapprove of.

The effect desired is to reduce infantry armour when in CC, but not vehicle armour. Applying MW is OTT and together with Lance would make Banshees 'tank-killers', the niche of the Shining Spears. Sniper (applied during CC assault) is close, but would require rule changes etc, as well as working against vehicles as well.

Some years ago, there was talk of providing something similar for a different unit, the effect of which is to apply a -1 to enemy infantry armour in CC. I think it was called 'assassin'.

Is it worth considering resurrecting it for the Banshees?




Adding First Strike to the notes would apply it to the Banshee's FF as well, which may be less desirable. And the HB + WS combo would not work as well given the first assault hits would apply to the weaker HB armour. Irrespective of your thoughts on the E-UK exarchs rule it does not seem to have been strong enough to see HBs make more than a fleeting appearance. MW is [you]definitely[/u] not the way forward because it makes Banshees really good RA tank killers which is totally out of character.

You have to remember that there aren't that many Uk tournament goers and not all of them play Eldar lists. A lot of those who do are fairly set in their ways and changes to people's behaviour do take time and the army book has only been out for just over a year. I personally think that EUK Banshees are a viable choice if they suit your playstyle. When one of the regular championship winners starts taking them on a regular basis, I would say they pass that particular litmus test.

Dave informed me that he is planning on using banshees until everyone starts calling them overpowered.....

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

I think at 2+ with the special nite about the exarch's attack being first strike (not the same as applying FS in the notes section btw), banshees are OK.

The fact is, as long as there is a difference between aspects there is always going to be a difference, however slight, between exarchs. It is inevitable that tournament players will optimise exarch placement, and one will thus always be "best" in a mixed-aspect formation, even by a tiny margin. For EUK that is FDs, for NetEA it is probably DRs (which is also the best EUK autarch because the FD autarch doesnt get FF MW).

CC is always going to be a problem for important characters in formations where first strike is involved, because the enemy gets to choose allocation. Giving FS to a CC exarch is a blessing in that it gives them the extra attack they might otherwise be denied, but it is also a curse in the sense that it removes the incentive for the enemy to allocate against the units in BtB with it - that puts it at greater risk of having to allocate return his on it. But TBH a canny opponent will do this even if it gives you the extra attack.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

This is not correct - each player allocates the hits generated by the opposing formation to his own units. They have to be allocated 'nearest-to-furthest', but within that, the owning player may choose where to put the hits. Consequently if there are several units as well as the Exarch at the same distance (eg in B-B), the Exarch gets hit after all the others.

_________________

Perhaps I should be clearer.

Imagine I have 6 banshees, all in base contact with 8 enemy units. I score 5 first strike hits. My opponent must allocate those hits against his own units - firstly against those in BtB, then nearest units. If there is an exarch with an extra (non-FS) CC attack which is in BtB with one of his units, he may decide to allocate one of those hits against the unit(s) that the exarch is in base contact with. If after saves are made there are no longer any units in BtB with the exarch, there will be no extra attack in the "regular" round of attacks. However, the exarch is no longer in BtB whilst some aspects are still. It is therefore unlikely my opponent will score enough hits to force me to allocate a hit to the valuable exarch.

Now imagine the same situation, but the exarch's extra CC attack has first strike. My opponent can't use allocation to rob the exarch of his extra attack, so the best thing my opponent can do is to allocate those 5 hits against units which are NOT in base contact with the exarch. Depending on how the units are arranged and how many die, when the regular round of attacks takes place there are a smaller number of aspects still in BtB, and the exarch is guaranteed to be one of them. Therefore fewer hits are required to force me to allocate one on him. It's by no means a large difference in chance of course.

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

WHich all add up to prove my point. EUK Banshees are the best CC exarch IMO because it's easier to manipulate the hits (Leave her at the back of the unit but in CC, so that her opponent is furthest forwards and generally dies first as they're the closest) and with FS the chance of getting hit back is lower than with other CC Exarchs but they still compare unfavourably with FF exarchs.

There's just not much you can do about it, due to the way core rules work. Overall though I would argue that EUK have it spot on when it comes to how exarchs are done list wise.

Admittedly I may have some bias, however unintentional, as I had a hand in suggesting and playtesting the EUK changes, but the arguments bear out on paper and in practice.

Also I reckon that 2+ FS Banshees are about right as heavy infantry killers. Heavy infantry (4+ save and better) tend to be in quite small units, as they're pretty elite. Nothing kills small units quite like lots of hits at FS which Banshees deliver. Even SM tactical squads are likely to have at least one hit on each unit from an 8 strong unit of Banshees, usually leading to 3 dead marine stands. When added to outnumbering bonuses and Inspiring the Tac squad should be as near as dammit wiped out. Even terminator squads can expect to lose half a squad before they even get to strike back unless armour saves are magnificent for the termies.

In short, I really don't see how much else can be done for Banshees without making them too good against vehicles or creating yet more special rules. They're just not as good as FF troops (Depending on playstyle of course, this is a broad generalisation) because CC is not as good as FF. With these stats, at last they are effective and are being used, even if it's not as much as the other FF orientated aspects.

All units in CC are regarded as being the same range to the enemy regardless of overall positioning and hit application is therefore at defender's discretion until all units at CC range have been applied a hit., as per RAW.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

People who make the lists need to know the rules, otherwise it's pointless, no?

_________________

Yep, and of course being in base contact they are all, by definition, equally "close" to the enemy. I wouldn't want to try to write a rule that does anything different - messing around with "direction of travel" etc would be a nightmare.

I agree though, there's nothing you can do about it, perfect balance is impossible. I also think the aspects in EUK are probably as close to balanced as we're going to get.

I'm quite wanting to field a pure banshee formation now That means painting some more up... sorry, wrong thread!

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

I was responding to this:

Checking the relative formation positions for which CC units are furthest forwards (and thus would be hit first) isn't part of the rules, AFAIK..

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

The important thing is to use orbital barrages to nuke the whole site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter