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Howling Banshees
Crabowl
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:35 am 
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I wouldn't give them MW4+FS or any other MW for that matter unless it's restricted to infantry only. I'd rather leave them as they are and move on. I don't want to see a formation of some gay elves with the strength of a three year old slicing 4 predators on average before the predators can even fight back. I understand that the units don't have to be like they are in 40k but that just seems wrong. Oh and if that's what they end up, rough rider power lances should get MW too.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:19 am 
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@ Magarch
FS does not have any impact on the attacking power of the Banshees, except where the attack is split into two parts and the FS removes some potential CC targets. However, I do agree that FS has an impact on both the Banshee losses and the assault resolution (which is what I think you were referring to). As Ilushia, says, FS makes them good against infantry, and CC6+ means that Tanks are not going to hurt them greatly.


@ Lord =I=
I have added a column for CC5+, EA+1, FS with a separate MW attack to my example for 6x Banshees Vs 6x enemy. As far as I can see, this would seem to provide very much the same stats as the current CC3+ FS stats (exactly the same as CC4+ EA+1 has the same profile as CC2+), except that it is fractionally better against 4+ armour, and fractionally worse against 4+RA armour.

Given that the existing profile is considered underpowered, I don?t see the point of this slight increase Vs heavy infantry / tanks ? could you explain further please?

Number of enemy units killed by Banshees given the various profiles, and using Scorpions as comparison:-
Armour ? ? Scorpions ? ? ? CC3+ ? ? CC4+, MW ? ? ? CC2+ ? ? CC5+, EA+1, MW ? ? CC4+, EA+1 ? ? CC4+, EA+1, MW
None ? ? ? ? ? ?6.00 ? ? ? ? ? 4.00 ? ? ? ? 3.00 ? ? ? ? ? 5.00 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4.00 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 5.50 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 5.50
6+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 5.00 ? ? ? ? ? 3.33 ? ? ? ? 3.00 ? ? ? ? ? 4.17 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3.57 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4.65 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4.94
5+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4.00 ? ? ? ? ? 2.67 ? ? ? ? 3.00 ? ? ? ? ? 3.33 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3.19 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3.78 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4.44
4+ ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3.00 ? ? ? ? ? 2.00 ? ? ? ? 3.00 ? ? ? ? ? 2.50 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 2.83 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 2.88 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4.00
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
6+RA ? ? ? ? ? 4.17 ? ? ? ? ? 2.78 ? ? ? ? 2.50 ? ? ? ? ? ?3.47 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 2.29 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3.93 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 4.20
5+RA ? ? ? ? ? 2.67 ? ? ? ? ? 1.78 ? ? ? ? 2.00 ? ? ? ? ? ?2.22 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?1.25 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?2.57 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 3.09
4+RA ? ? ? ? ? 1.50 ? ? ? ? ? 1.00 ? ? ? ? 1.50 ? ? ? ? ? ?1.25 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 0.62 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1.47 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 2.13


@Crabowl (and others)
Please don?t take this the wrong way, but I am beginning to see what Lord=I= is trying to explain, which I hope is starting to be demonstrated in the table above. Firstly CC5+, EA+1 is broadly equivalent to CC3+, while CC4+, EA+1 is broadly equivalent to CC2+. Secondly, the additional power of MW, Sniper etc can be offset by decreasing the basic value of the attack. By combining these two elements, you can change the profile against heavy armour whilst leaving the impact against light infantry and RA largely unaffected.

Putting the aesthetics of the MW to one side for a moment, would this slight change in profile (CC5+, EA+1, MW, FS) be sufficient for you to take Banshees, or would you want something else?


@Mosc
I agree that things have got very detailed however, IMO we still have broadly three options of a single powerfull attack, two weaker attacks or adding an ?Infantry MW? to the existing profile, all with FS somewhere to offset the weaker armour, and with various possibilities of Ignore Cover, Sniper or MW to provide extra emphasis and colour.

We all agree that they need some form of boost, and opinion generally favours an increase in their assault capabilities in some way. However, we have yet to define how much increase is needed ? or when it becomes overpowered.

I am not sure that we can go much further except by trying some of these variations out to see what happens in practice - unless Chroma (or Neal) have any further thoughts that is :)

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Lord Inquisitor
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:38 am 
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(Ginger @ Feb. 15 2008,22:19)
QUOTE
Given that the existing profile is considered underpowered, I don?t see the point of this slight increase Vs heavy infantry / tanks ? could you explain further please?

I was also assuming that First Strike was in the unit notes (which simplifies the datafax, although it's a bit of an oddity that their FF attacks would get FS). But I was running on the principle of a minimum boost (since everyone is so scared of MW).

The only real problem I see with CC5+ is it will make Banshee Exarchs rather rubbish...

By combining these two elements, you can change the profile against heavy armour whilst leaving the impact against light infantry and RA largely unaffected.

:D

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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:01 pm 
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Lord =I=, the main reason for keeping FS on the weapon stats was to prevent it being used on their FF attacks; essentially to prevent them being used as a poor Warp Spider substitute.

The other reason for keeping the FS on the weapon is that this allows us to use combinations of various elements of the profile to make the FS CC attack more powerfull; increasing the likelyhood that it will make the 'normal' CC attack less likely, thus reducing the power of that MW attack.

However, I think we all agree that this mechanic is more complex (albeit more colourful) and is another indicator that we really need to review how the unit stats are presented as a whole to make them more comprehensible in general (and not just for this particular unit) :)

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:20 pm 
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(Ginger @ Feb. 16 2008,03:19)
QUOTE
We all agree that they need some form of boost, and opinion generally favours an increase in their assault capabilities in some way.

Just a quick question.  Does everyone agree that they need a boost in power?

I ask because in my games the Aspect Warhost has consistantly shown itself to be one of the most powerful formations we have tried.  Containing powerful units that can be customised to fit the role selected for the formation.

So my concern is that the changes end up giving an increase in power to an already very good formation in one of the best armies in the game.
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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:51 pm 
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Clausewitz, you are correct that Aspects are generally powerfull, and most have some speciality. The point is that, relative to the other Aspects, Banshees do not perform well nor do they have a special niche. Consequently they are rarely fielded as the other Aspects are so much better - Warp Spiders have FF First Strike and also have better armour; Striking Scorpions have better armour and a much better attack; Shining Spears have better mobility, better armour and Lance making them anti-titan specialists etc.

What I believe we are trying to do here is both to increase Banshees power a bit, but more importantly, we are trying to give them their own specialism:- ?anti-heavy armoured infantry (if possible). The issue being that we do not want to make them over-powered (for the reasons you point out) and also that the game mechanics make it quite difficult to create purely anti-infantry specialists.

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:03 pm 
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I understand the issue with Banshees Ginger.  And I agree that they are the least utilised aspect.  I'm not sure that I agree that they do not have a niche though.  They are the First Strike CC specialists (they are to scorpions what warp spiders are to dire avengers).

IMO, a big part of this issue is that FF is generally more useful/powerful than CC, since it can be used multiple times in a turn, is easier to position for and doesn't loose attacks if something dies in an earlier round of attacks (rare occurance, but one that has been discussed if banshees had 1 FS CC +1 EA CC).

I can't really see a way in the current rules to distinguish between Inf and AV in assaults, might just be my opinion but that appears to be quite intentional (or CC/FF values could easily have had AP/AT sub-values assigned to them at the beginning).  And, again IMO, the Eldar list has more than enough special rules/weapons/units.  So if changes must be made I would try the smallest changes first, avoiding Macro Weapons and Extra Attacks (as these are generally the big boosters in assaults).
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zombocom
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:55 pm 
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CC2+ is the best way to represent them being better against troops than vahicles, since troops have in general worse armour saves, so are more likely to die to normal hits.

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Beardy fluffbag
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 10:35 pm 
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i think making them inspiring ( represents penalty to oponent for banshee masks) and cc5+ mw fs would work though i do not no haow over powered this would make if combined with certain units of the army as i have not read the eldar army list :blush:

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 11:28 pm 
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Inspiring would make them absurd o.o You'd have like +8 to combat resolution before even rolling the dice! YOu could virtually never loose a fight with them usually. >.>
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Chroma
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:13 am 
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(Ilushia @ Feb. 16 2008,22:28)
QUOTE
Inspiring would make them absurd o.o You'd have like +8 to combat resolution before even rolling the dice! YOu could virtually never loose a fight with them usually. >.>

Yeah, Banshees are *not* getting inspiring as a basic ability!  *laugh*

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Markconz
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:28 am 
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There is no easy way to duplicate many exact 40k interactions, because there are too many 40k variables amalgamated  into each epic stat.

Lets not get too hung up on doing so I think. Just choose something that gives the right sort of feel in Epic.  Banshees are the fast and precise Aspect, so give em 2+ and be done with it I say. May not be quite enough, but it is probably good enough that they will be a reasonable choice in an army, and sufficiently unique and different from the other aspects.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:03 am 
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(clausewitz @ Feb. 16 2008,19:03)
QUOTE
I understand the issue with Banshees Ginger. ?And I agree that they are the least utilised aspect. ?I'm not sure that I agree that they do not have a niche though. ?They are the First Strike CC specialists (they are to scorpions what warp spiders are to dire avengers).

IMO, a big part of this issue is that FF is generally more useful/powerful than CC, since it can be used multiple times in a turn, is easier to position for and doesn't loose attacks if something dies in an earlier round of attacks (rare occurance, but one that has been discussed if banshees had 1 FS CC +1 EA CC).

I can't really see a way in the current rules to distinguish between Inf and AV in assaults, might just be my opinion but that appears to be quite intentional (or CC/FF values could easily have had AP/AT sub-values assigned to them at the beginning). ?And, again IMO, the Eldar list has more than enough special rules/weapons/units. ?So if changes must be made I would try the smallest changes first, avoiding Macro Weapons and Extra Attacks (as these are generally the big boosters in assaults).

Your point on FF being far better than CC is well made and at least part of the issue. However, the ability to mix Aspects does allow people to address this issue in part - so you could perhaps consider a mixture of Banshees and Spiders to provide both elements of good CC and FF flexibility. So why don't we do this?

Because WS have better armour, infiltrate and a FF attack; giving them far greater resilience, reach and combat flexibility. If you take they view that Scorpions are a better measure, Scorpions still have a far better attack and greater resilience.

Basically Banshees in their current form are so far below the level of these other Aspects that they just are not worth considering because they are outperformed on virtually every level. Here, it seems generally accepted that they need to have a slight overall increase in power, possibly skewed in favour of one target type, wilst leaving their armour and speed unchanged (at least for now). The question is just how much of a boost is needed?

IMO, it may be possible to provide some capacity to distinguish between Infantry, Armour and Reinforced Armour though it is hard and some mechanics become quite subtle. Opinion seems to favour trying for an anti-infantry specialist, and I think that any of these will provide this
  • Adding the "infantry MW" to the current stats
    Boosts the power and specialisation even though like you I have reservations about adding a special note to the stats.
  • CC4+ EA+1, FS
    This is both marginally more powerfull and has a wider range of results than CC2+ FS (though I am biased here) :). Adding Ignore Cover to the FS attack is distinctly possibility but may just make them OTT against Infantry
  • CC2+ FS
    This is better all round than CC3+. Adding Ignore Cover is distinctly possibility but may just make them OTT against Infantry. However it does have the merit that it avoids the special note and MW
Ok, lets have a go at setting up a straw poll to check general views.




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Chroma
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:27 am 
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(Ginger @ Feb. 17 2008,01:03)
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This is both marginally more powerfull and has a wider range of results than CC2+ FS (though I am biased here) :). Adding Ignore Cover to the FS attack is distinctly possibility but may just make them OTT against Infantry

Banshees *are* supposed to be "OTT" against infantry... they *slaughter* infantry in close combat in 40k.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Howling Banshees
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:50 am 
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(Chroma @ Feb. 17 2008,00:27)
QUOTE

(Ginger @ Feb. 17 2008,01:03)
QUOTE
This is both marginally more powerfull and has a wider range of results than CC2+ FS (though I am biased here) :). Adding Ignore Cover to the FS attack is distinctly possibility but may just make them OTT against Infantry

Banshees *are* supposed to be "OTT" against infantry... they *slaughter* infantry in close combat in 40k.

Let's not get too carried away, yes they are ok close combat troops but really they need numbers and situational advantage same as anything else. I've seen them fail against other infantry enough times.

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