Would fewer titans make the list stronger, or weaker?

the games i played were fairly close both times, i wouldnt say that it was over the top as it stands, and i made my lists based on a 2:1 ratio to test it out.
The D cannon could possiably do with a bit of a nerf though, it was a bit of a show stopper.

Tim NZ

just out of curiosity, can I take 2 power fists on 1 titan? That'd be AWESOME! A couple of those in tandem would annihilate a Guard army pretty much all by themselves. Turn 2, advance/double into support range of 1st fm and fire on 2nd fm with 14 shots, retain and engage 1st fm with 12x FF3 and another 12x FF3 support. Repeat on Turn3. Sure, it's 1500pts, so it should do a lot of damage (I can hear E&C's response already ), but there's still 1500pts left to deal with the rest of the enemy.

Personally I'd up the powerfist points to 50 and think about upping the D-cannon cost or nerfing it's stats (either same damage as the Cobra D-cannon or same BP).

I vote for moving the +3FF attacks from the 'Fist to the Missile launchers...especially if twin 'fists is possible.

wouldn't you then have to up the cost of the base build though or even the standard twin pulsar build in the other Eldar lists?

Would need playtesting. Currently there are two configurations, one for shooting and one for assault. Assaults are generally more effective, so that one is picked a lot more often. With the switch, you now have a long range shooting config, and a close range/close combat configuration (if 6x AT4+/AP4+ i superior to 2x MW3+(TK), which it should sometimes be and sometimes not be).

Hmm, actually the 'fist configuration would also be more effective with that change - the titan can now use the 'fist in CC AND use the (small arms) EA+3 at the same time, which it currently can't. Sigh.

Crap, that's a good point. We really need to discuss the ironing out of the wrinkles in the Eldar Titans with the AC. Who's that again? Oh, right. It'll be done by the end of the long count. Probably.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

as long as you're in CC and FF with something, as a WE you can use all of your attacks. It's only if the phantom is in BtB only OR FF only that you can only use one or the other. That's why you should never part CC part FF a Warlock titan

But the fist is:
6x AP4+/AT4+
OR SA, EA+3
OR AW, EA+2, TK (d3)

Moving the EA+3 to the Titan Chassis, would mean that you would get [8x CC or FF AND 3x FF attacks] AND 2x TK (d3) CC attacks instead of 8x CC or FF AND [3x FF attacks OR 2x TK (d3) CC attacks], for a net increase in assault power.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

good luck with that SG. Even if you do get in contact with him he'll probably arbitrarily change typo something different.

As it stands, I would probably kit all my titans out with a powerfist and tremor cannon (possibly D-cannon). I'd never bother with the sword at the same cost as the powerfist and the D-cannon/ tremor cannon (depending on target; WE vs. infantry/AV) are far far superior to any of the other shooting options, irrespective of 25pts here or there - 1 ranger stand or a 2 template MW TK(d6) barrage? Hmm, tricky

Now, if the powerfist was nerfed by moving the +3 FF attacks onto the titan body, then it would be twin D-cannons or twin tremor cannons all the way (8BP MW Tk barrage, hello Great Gargant!) and still use them as assault monsters. I might swap one of the tremor cannons out for a psylance, for extra assault nastiness, but that's about it.

ah, I see. You might want to put those ORs in your pdf, just to avoid confusion.

Aren't phantoms DC6? So moving the PF +3 FF attacks to the chassis would give 9x FF attacks or 6x CC attacks for the bare chassis, plus whatever any weapon load out adds? This would give quite a boost even to the powerfist, as you said above (would then be 9x FF + 2x CC Tk), and an enormous boost to any shooty titans. Their only weakness would then be SM terminator assaults and the like.

Not my pdf. AoC's. I just happen to be on and have an interest in the list. On the 9x attacks, crap, my bad there.

Without going over the list again, I'd agree that the effective set of weapons (i.e. those I'd actually consider taking) is very small compared to the ATML list, and that the Sword needs something else to make it worth the same as the Power Fist. Finding that something without breaking hte sword as well would be difficult at best.

Again, without digging through the list again, I remember the number of non-MW, non-Barrage weapons was very small. In general it seems that balancing the AP, AT, and potentially AA scores is what adds variety to the weapons in the design process, and that taking mostly MW and Barrage weapons eliminates this, making the choices between weapons simpler, and less likely to produce variety in list construction. The OGBM list suffers from the same handicap.

I think that the flavor of the ATML list comes largely from the variety of potential Titan layouts, something this list currently lacks. The ability to choose between different Battle Titans is also critical to the ATML, and again this list lacks in that department. After all the Warlock and Phantom are really the same chassis with differing abilities.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

The Eldar Titans have low DC for their cost, which means that they also have fewer attacks than you might expect (they have low DC because they are fragile, not because they're less dangerous).

Maybe drop the extra FF attacks to 2? So the missile launchers gain (small arms) EA+2 and the 'fist loses the small arms entry.

oops, sorry SG, forgot about that.

I think this list has a lot of potential for ironing out kinks in the Eldar titans that could possibly be applied to the main Eldar lists. For starters, costing individual weapons allows their real cost to be determined. Eg. the powerfist on a 700pt chassis is easily worth 50pts alone, whereas the pulsar is probably about right at 25pts, however that would make the standard list Phantom cost 775pts, which no one would use as you only have to find 75pts to get a Warlock, which is much better. However, in this list, it's a lot easier to make changes like that. Similarly, the D-cannon is easily worth 75pts (especially as 2 are worth way more than 100pts).

that would be an easier way of approaching weapon balance than changing the chassis stats, which would not only be a big divergence from the standard lists but something that would completely change the balance of the standard titan as a twin pulsar phantom would suddenly become pretty appealing.

Another issue is the cost of revenants - 325pts each is about right, but no way are they worth 650pts. On pretty much every comparison they suck compared to Warhounds for 150pts more. For 600pts I might consider them, for 550pts they'd become a competitive choice, at 650pts I'd never take them except perhaps for a bit of fun in a larger game and never at a tournament.

Here are my thoughts, suggestions, FWIW.

First off, when were Revenant Pulse Lasers changed to MW4+? At the same time that Pulse was changed? And why were they changed? To make them less powerful than the Titan Pulsars? If these assumptions are correct, then here are my suggestions.

Return Revenant Pulse lasers to MW3+, making them 2x MW3+. This puts them in better shape than the twin PBG Warhound in the ATML list (2xMW2+, Slow Firing each, for 300pt) at 25 more points, with the drawback that with the Scout Titan Weapons available, a dual purpose (AV and AP) Revenant is not feasable. Which fits in with the Eldar design ethos.

Make Titan Pulsars MW2+, TK(1), to keep them ahead of the Revenant's weapons. This also encourages moving, as there is no incentive to Sustain Fire. These weapons would be approximately equal in Power to a Volcano Cannon, but unable to be taken in the same numbers, so leaving them at +25pt might be OK. Their cost might need to be adjusted, though.

Reduce the D-Cannon and Tremor Cannon to 3BP. They have no reason to produce 2 templates, IMO, especially the D-Cannon which produces a spherical warp rift. THis would tone these weapons, which are the best available [except the PF] by some distance, and make them worth only what their cost is.

With regards variety, the available weapons have 3 MW, 4 BP, and 2 Assault, one of which is the only AP/AT weapon option in the list. There is therefore a great deal of competition for essentially the same roles. Changing the stats of some of the weapons, or even introducing new ones (gasp!) might alleviate that and allow some variety to creep into the list.

I will leave the Power Fist aside, as it needs to be redone entirely, perhaps divided into two seperate weapons.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.