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Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
Ginger
 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:12 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ Nov. 09 2009, 19:20 )

So having played against the Eldar layered super AA umbrella, a ground specific AA formation was completely unbalanced. It was nearly impossible to crack the AA umbrella because of the synergy of having super Prism AA tanks shielding Nightwing fighters which then protected Phoenix bombers and Vampires. It wasn't that the individual formations/squadrons were so OTT in and of themselves, it was how they worked together to be nearly invincible.

Also keep in mind that just because a list is lacking a unit/formation, does not equate to a lack of capability. For a real life example, consider the US armed forces. With a few exceptions, Air defense is not projected by fielding lots of AA armored vehicles, it enforced by dominating the skies via the Air Force. The US Army hasn't been subject to air attacks in nearly 50 years.

I felt that removing the AA from the Prism was a tough, but smart move. Please do not bring it back.

I don't disagree with the general reasoning here Honda, which was why I suggested a separate stats line for the AA to reduce the AA range and impact etc, and a way to limit the formation to a maximum of 5x units.

The strategy you outline is a standard mechanic that can be adopted by any combination of ground AA and air formations, so allowing FP to have AA is less of an issue per se. Indeed If you wanted to protect an air assault, the Falcon / Firestorms formation has to be a better bet because One firestorm with 2x AA4+ is statistically better than 5x FPs with AA6+, and two unsupressed Firestorms are really formidable.

The point is that having AA makes the FP a bit more attractive than being just a pure long range anti-RA specialist.

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Grimgork
 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:30 pm 
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I want to add to that a bit. I like the NetERC FP stats (wow a fair amount of acronyms ;) ) because the FP then is not only a long range AT tank but is is also more flexible in comparison to the falcon because it can attack infantry too with its 60cm AP 4+. That made for me the choice between dedicatet AT & AA (falcons, firestorm) and longer range AT & AP (FP). Ok, the falcon can attack infantry too, but only at 30cm which is a range where my falcons seldom wanted to be.

But I think you are right Ginger. We should end this fireprism debate here and take on your suggestion of going through all changes point by point. Makes more sense I believe. And we should give Chroma his well deserved rest and wait until he returnes before bashing our heads ;)
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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:57 am 
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Quote: (Ginger @ Nov. 09 2009, 20:36 )

The whole point behind removing Spirit Stones was to encourage a much more conservative strategy, because it is usually hard to recover Broken Eldar formations, and very easy to break them.

Sorry Ginger, but the biggest complaint for my group was that Spirit Stones was parachuted into the list at the last minute without any external testing when it wasn't in our opinion needed.

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frogbear
 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:50 am 
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I would like to know the justification behind giving Wraithguard 2x FF shots. I guess I can understand the MW, but why 2 shots?

It may not seem like an issue for a normal list however when they are a core unit for a Craftworld, I feel they could really use a re-think...

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arkturas
 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:38 pm 
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I think for the Fire Prism formation (either 75cm AP4+/AT4+/AA5+ lance or 60cm AP4+/AT2+ Lance) the stats are less of an issue in the Biel-Tan list than the fact that the formation is overpriced. The Fire Prism formation isn't worth as much as a Falcon formation (3 Falcon, 2 Firestorm split) and should probably weigh in at 150-175pts for 3 on the NetEA version (simply because a Falcon at 45cm beats the Fire Prism at 60cm against all RA targets except 3+ and 4+ and heavily beats it against AV and LV).
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GlynG
 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:52 pm 
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Quote: (frogbear @ Nov. 10 2009, 09:50 )

I would like to know the justification behind giving Wraithguard 2x FF shots. I guess I can understand the MW, but why 2 shots?

It may not seem like an issue for a normal list however when they are a core unit for a Craftworld, I feel they could really use a re-think...

They all carry very nasty Wraithguns that tear open holes into another hostile universe (same tech as the Cobra's gun).

Most normal squads have mostly normal weapons with a single special and/or heavy weapon, but each of these all come with powerful weapons.

They are good at the moment, but balanced good and not too good IMO.
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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:02 pm 
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I kind of wonder whether the armor value change for jetbikes is really needed. Going from 4+ to 5+ is a big change, and it comes with no reduction in point cost. Were jetbike really that overpowered?
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Honda
 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:22 pm 
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Quote: 

Sorry Ginger, but the biggest complaint for my group was that Spirit Stones was parachuted into the list at the last minute without any external testing when it wasn't in our opinion needed.


Strongly agree with this statement. Also, Ginger, not to pick on your statements, but I really don't see the need for adding the AA back to the prism. It would be one thing if the Eldar were severely lacking in AA support, but they are not. By adding another ground AA unit to the mix you introduce multiple layers of defense, individually perhaps not overwhelming, but by judicious use of the complementary ranges produce a near invulnerable shell.

I'm really struggling to see where the Eldar are suffering because of this ommission.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:38 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ Nov. 10 2009, 14:22 )

but I really don't see the need for adding the AA back to the prism.

And to prove that I can argue with anyone  :laugh:

I find Fire Prism AA to be the perfect counter to Marines, especially when I want to play with eldar titans. Nightwings are of course brilliant, but can only be taken in a 3k battle if you deign yourself the chance to use a Warlock or Phantom.

Marines are the Air Assault army of epic, but for every pro there has to be a con and FPs backed up with Nightwings provide that role. (I'm sure Alan won't mind recapping what he did when faced with this type of eldar force earlier this year.)

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semajnollissor
 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:41 pm 
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As for Eldar AA, I think the biggest problem with the current eldar tanks is that, given how few [types] of them there are, there really isn't a need to have their capabilities overlap.

The way I see it, the falcon is the infantry fighting vehicle, the firestorm is the AA platform, and the fire prism is the tank hunter.

Whether or not the NetEA Fireprism stats are worth the points cost (either as 65 pt in a Swords of Vaul troupe, are in a formation of 3 for 250 pts) is another question entirely. I personally feel that fire prisms (with 60cm AT2+/AP4+ lance) are close to equal in value to falcon. If that isn't the case, why not try to adjust their stats again, so that a swords of vaul troupe can be as easy as picking 5 tanks from the following list: falcon, fire prism, 0-2 firestorm; for 250pts, with an option for a sixth for an additional 50pts.
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Honda
 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:00 pm 
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Quote: 

Whether or not the NetEA Fireprism stats are worth the points cost (either as 65 pt in a Swords of Vaul troupe, are in a formation of 3 for 250 pts) is another question entirely. I personally feel that fire prisms (with 60cm AT2+/AP4+ lance) are close to equal in value to falcon. If that isn't the case, why not try to adjust their stats again, so that a swords of vaul troupe can be as easy as picking 5 tanks from the following list: falcon, fire prism, 0-2 firestorm; for 250pts, with an option for a sixth for an additional 50pts.


I think the real issue here is cost not AA. I think the above recommendation should be pursued.

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Ginger
 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:23 pm 
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I also agree with that, though I would prefer keeping the 75cm range as well (though with AT3+ perhaps) to provide a greater distinction from the Falcon. But I believe the radical change in stats was quite possibly to allow this kind of amalgamation.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:01 pm 
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Quote: (semajnollissor @ Nov. 10 2009, 14:41 )

The way I see it, the falcon is the infantry fighting vehicle, the firestorm is the AA platform, and the fire prism is the tank hunter.

Surely currently the falcon is the tank hunter?

As for 'going back to having AA' in the UK in most places it never left (though did confuse some of us, well, me).

75cm TK4+, that would be fun :)

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mattthemuppet
 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:15 pm 
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Quote: (The_Real_Chris @ Nov. 10 2009, 14:01 )

75cm TK4+, that would be fun :)

you're such a stirrer Chris.

that said though, the Falcon is most definitely NOT an anti-infantry tank - it's pretty much useless in that role. Mixed with Firestorms helps thought, to some degree.

If anything is going to have a range increase I'd push for Scorpions to go to 75cm, not the Fireprisms. Not that that's completely necessary but it would be odd for a light battle tank to have a longer range weapon than a SHGT.

I'd push as well for the suggestion above - keep Fireprisms, Falcons and Firestorms at the same points cost. They seem internally well balanced enough for that to work and would certainly see more prisms being taken. Still wouldn't add AA though, though that's just my opinion :)

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Problems with Craftworld Eldar list
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:23 pm 
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Oddly there is no Eldar weapon with a range greater than 60" which translates to 60cm in Epic.
The only exception is the Night Spinner's Shadow Weaver which has a range of G72" which translates to 75cm as IndirectFire range (direct fire range would be 37,5cm).

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