 
|
Page 1 of 10 |
[ 140 posts ] | Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10 Next |
Fire Warriors |
||||||
| CyberShadow |
|
|||||
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm Posts: 9348 Location: Singapore |
|
|||||
| Top |   |
|||||
 |
||||||
In 40k they work in a few ways:
- They can be used as massed 'horde' line troops. They allow for a very formidable firing infantry line of AP/ALV fire. This is accurately represented for now, but given the fluff I feel the possibilities should be 'trimmed' or capped at an Epic Scale.
- They are also the Mechanised infantry. Rather simple here, they are mechanised, they deploy and let rip. Usually in support of other things. They're a thorny prospect, which I feel is well represented in the Epic Stats themselves.
- They also make handy 'objective grabbers' from a devilfish in small amounts.
What stats would most accurately portray Fire Warriors in Epic? Does the weapon load-out match the usual 40K armament, or the background?
It matches the older edition rather well, with the disrupt at short range. However, even modelling for all pulse rifles, the firepower still doubles at very short ranges[15cm in epic]. I personally feel the stats themselves are okay enough in Epic, but the feel of the formations should be very much changed. Well, all except for the Markerlights. Whilst they can have 1-3 Markerlights in 40k Scale, I'm not especially comfortable having *all* Firewarrior stands with the ability. I feel a proliferation of pathfinders works best.
The first is what they currently are - although I am not convinced by the Markerlights or the Rail Rifles!
Me neither. Markerlights should be out, and rail rifles aren't part of FW Squads anyhow!
The second is what I have termed the 'Dark Reaper Warriors', with 2x 30cm AP5+ - which seems to me a better fit but actually makes the stand less attractive.
I think the basic stand minus the markelight ability works best for them.
Now, if I may wax lyrical for a moment:
Firewarrior Formations at the moment can go up in excess of 20 stands. I believe almost all background points to the Fire Warriors being very much a strike team, not a 'line' infantry. Mainly because Tau-Shas tactics don't involve them deploying lines of Shas. If a battle line is to be formed, it'll be auxilliaries[Kroot/Humans/Vespids/Demiurg/Galg] doing this, not Shas'la. Their fighting style is too different.
In this, it should be capped at relative maximums for the Shas'la themselves IMO.
That'd be, a Firewarrior cadre is limited due to it's size:
Basic Formation:
4 Firewarriors
2 Devilfish
Upgrades:
Everything[SC only if crisis is taken and networked drones only if HHs are taken]
Now I make the sweeping proposal!
You are only allowed certain contingents dependent upon which main Cadre you take!
Now, I'll detail my outlook on this...
Cadre:
Fire Warriors
Contingents Allowed:
Pathfinder
Stealth
Broadside
Hammerhead
Tetras
Piranhas
Gun Drone Wing
Markerlight Sentries
[See, so FW Cadre lets you have interesting things, but nothing majorly interesting]
Cadre:
Crisis
Contingents allowed:
Stealth
Broadside
Hammerhead
Gun Drone
Cadre:
Armoured Mobile Hunter Cadre
Contingents allowed:
Hammerhead
Scorpionfish
Stingray
Piranhas
With a bit of tweaking on the upgrades, it sort of 'trims' the entire list a bit by making it less open. I know, I know, the Tau are all about flexibility, but I think the flexibility to 'do whatever the hell you want with everything' really shouldn't be open to them. So if you want a good bit of Markerlighting for your Super-Hammerhead Formation, your two Scorpionfish and your Stingray Formation you *need* a Crisis Formation or a Firewarrior Formation to let you have proper access to a decent Pathfinder or Stealth formation.
Also by constricting the choice of contingents you can access, it allows some of the formations to be jiggled where they otherwise couldn't be as they'd *just* be for accessing others. And because of this, it means you can make FWs reasonably cheap *but* also have them be requried for certain combinations.
Basically so that you don't end with an army following the theme:
FW
Stingrays
Scorpions
FW
Stingrays
Scorpions
FW
Stingrays
Scorpions
etc.
You need to follow some sort of 'core' for it to be accessible. I feel this is required as the Tau list feels a bit too 'open' IMO. But still, others *will* widely disagree. Very widely.
Xisor
_________________
"Number 6 calls to you
The Cylon Detector beckons
Your girlfriend is a toaster"
| Chroma |
|
|||||||
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm Posts: 9684 Location: Montréal, QC, Canada |
|
|||||||
| Top | |
|||||||
|
||||||||
| Ilushia |
|
|||
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am Posts: 1189 |
In the 40K background Tau don't hold terrain basically at all. But Fire Warriors make up the VAST majority of their forces. Mounted almost exclusively in Devilfish they stage hit-and-run attacks. Bait and switch with Crisis suits. For instance, a Fire Warrior Cadre pulls forwards and opens fire on an enemy formation, drawing attention. Then retreats across a hill. The enemy persues only to find the hill to be covered by Crisis suits which moved in as they worked over it. Cut off from the main line and surrounded they're rapidly destroyed. The Tau then retreat and repeat the process elsewhere. They don't stand and shoot the way other armies do, they don't engage in siege or fortified warfare. It goes against their 'style' of combat. They're all about mobility and being able to work their way across the battlefield to the best positions. How do Fire Warriors work in 40K? Does 40K accurately portray these guys. Where does it get it right, where is it wrong, and what is the typical armament and operation of them in the game? |
For the most part 40K gets it about right, I think. In the fluff material the Fire Warriors virtually always have Devilfish, which isn't required in 40K (points concerns I think), but that's not a huge issue. As far as their operation in the game it's more or less the same style as it is in the fluff. They present a firing line and a 'threat' to the enemy. A target which the enemy either has to take out or get pummeled by. When the enemy comes to kill them the Crisis Suits work to cut the enemy off and destroy them. Armament wise they're almost always taken with full pulse-rifles, plus 2 Gun Drones for the leader. Under the current (new) codex, I'd expect to see a bit more often the leader taking Marker Drones and 2-3 Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines. Operations can go many ways. The 'classic' way to use them in terms of tournament lists tends to be roughly the same as how they're used in Epic: Fill out your required slots to get to the 'good stuff'. Over-all I'd say 40K does a good job portraying them as they're supposed to be. The solid backbone of the Tau.
What stats would most accurately portray Fire Warriors in Epic? Does the weapon load-out match the usual 40K armament, or the background?
I like the stats of them in Epic right now, over all. I do, however, think they should move to FF 4+. They're at least as good as Space Marines when it comes to short-range fire-power. I'd most likely remove the Pulse Carbines from their data sheets though. While in 40K scale they CAN carry these, it's very rare to see more then 1 per 5-man unit. The only way I could see legitimate reasoning for these is if you're counting each squad as having 2 gun drones with it, which doesn't feel quite right for me. Since that'd mean that virtually everyone should have such weapons. So... I'd say remove the Pulse Carbines, give them FF 4+ and maybe make their Pulse Rifles be AP 4+. Might make them too good, but I think it'd better represent their abilities over all.
The first is what they currently are - although I am not convinced by the Markerlights or the Rail Rifles!
Certainly no Rail Rifles (Though they don't have any right now, did you mean Pulse Carbines?). As far as Markerlights go... Well, if you're going by the current codex then they can take 1 for the squad leader and up to 2 more from the marker drones... I might suggest adding a Leader upgrade for the unit who gains Markerlights. So only one squad in the unit would have them. Dunno if that'd be useful though.
The second is what I have termed the 'Dark Reaper Warriors', with 2x 30cm AP5+ - which seems to me a better fit but actually makes the stand less attractive.
Neat in theory, probably not all that good. While it'd be nice at long range, it'd still suffer from the biggest issue I see with fire warriors, their uselessness in Fire Fights. They don't have Tau Jump Packs so they can't run away. And even at 2x AP 5+ they lack the firepower to put out much damage in the ranges you need to be in to shoot. Since virtually any time the Tau can shoot at an enemy the enemy can assault them. And with a FF of 5+ they can get spanked by almost anyone. Even Termagants, who are significantly worse then they are in 40K, can beat them fairly easily! That doesn't sit right with me at all.
| Dobbsy |
|
||||
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am Posts: 4499 Location: Melbourne, Australia |
So what you propose is forcing people to take X to get Y? Not keen on this idea. Other armies aren't hamstrung by this theory. Do they not get to take the units they want to take at will? This also stops people taking a themed army if they so wish. You couldn't take an all-armour force if you wanted that's for sure. You'd be stuck with units you didn't need or want for that matter.... In this, it should be capped at relative maximums for the Shas'la themselves IMO |
Fair enough, then why not just reduce the formations size and points? Reducing them from 8 to 4 plus transports? Of course weakening them in the process you should really afford them some compensation - maybe include a free Ethereal with them? This makes them somewhat more "survivable" and interesting as a 6 unit formation. Having to put other units types (Crisis etc) with them for this survivability doesn't work so well when you consider different movement speeds for example.
Still, this is all just my view on your idea Xisor. I'm not saying it isn't interesting, just that it's not what I would prefer to have done just to tweak the Fire Warriors.
| Dobbsy |
|
|||||||
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am Posts: 4499 Location: Melbourne, Australia |
It's funny, I've always thought that something that puts out that much accurate and deadly firepower at close range should not be relegated to 5+ FF just for fluff's sake. How about we up their FF to 4+ reduce them to 4 units plus transport and put in an Ethereal? It may go some way to making them more interesting to take.... Just an idea though. What do you think CS? |
| Xisor |
|
||||
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm Posts: 515 |
|
||||
| Top | |
||||
|
|||||
| Ilushia |
|
|||||
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am Posts: 1189 |
Fair enough, then why not just reduce the formations size and points? Reducing them from 8 to 4 plus transports? Of course weakening them in the process you should really afford them some compensation - maybe include a free Ethereal with them? This makes them somewhat more "survivable" and interesting as a 6 unit formation. Having to put other units types (Crisis etc) with them for this survivability doesn't work so well when you consider different movement speeds for example. Still, this is all just my view on your idea Xisor. I'm not saying it isn't interesting, just that it's not what I would prefer to have done just to tweak the Fire Warriors. |
The first part of this one I'm really with you on. People should NOT be forced to take specific units to get specific secondary units. Upgrades, sure. But not formations. It just doesn't fit right, and it CERTAINLY doesn't make much sense with the Tau.
I'd agree that they probably have too many numbers... But I don't think that reducing their base size is the right answer. What about just leaving them at 8 bases and 4 devilfish, but remove the 'Add fire warriors' option for the unit? Cut the 'Fire Warriors' upgrade out of the list, basically. That'd prevent you from having a 12 fire-warrior and 6 Devilfish formation, and make Fire Warriors a bit less of a damage-sink without seriously costing them their combat effectiveness. Encourage people to take Pathfinders, Gun Drones, Heavy Gun Drones and similar things instead. That'd fit with the tau's idea of combind arms. You don't have a huge formation of 60 Fire Warriors and 6 Devilfish to cart them around. instead you have say 40 Fire Warriors, 5 Devilfish, 6 Crisis Suits and 10 Pathfinders all trucking around together. Which feels right to me, since that fairly well represents a single general purpose armed force for the Tau.
