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Tau Empires - Sniper Gun Drone Teams

Tactica

Post subject: Tau Empires - Sniper Gun Drone Teams

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 8:10 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Tau Sniper Gun Drone Teams (SGDT) are found in the latest Tau Empires Codex.

Q1: Do we want to impliment them into E:A?

Q2: If Q1 = yes, how do we want to impliment them?

Note: the SGDT potentially affect other units/formations in the E:A Tau list.

SGDT have the:

1. Stealth Suit's Stealth Feild Generator - which means no enemy greater than 36" away in 40K can target them.

2. Pathfinder's Rail Rifle - which is a 36" range Strength 6 weapon with Target Lock in 40K. It allows each model in the 40K unit to target a seperate enemy unit in 40K.

3. Skyray and TigerShark's Network Marker Light - which in 40K does a whole slew of things, not to mention making the unit firing at a lit target hit better.

Note: they don't ride in Devilfish. One can buy up to 3 units that may work together or independently in 40K. They are purchased as a single Heavy Support choice in 40K.

Cheers,

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Xisor

Post subject: Tau Empires - Sniper Gun Drone Teams

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 9:24 pm

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Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 10:11 pm
Posts: 515

Best abstraction I can see is to allow them an unusually long range, but represent them as one stand.

FW profile, but with 3*AP6+ 'Disrupt'
- In addition: Scouts, at minimum. A high armour value to represent the 'hard work' needed to go and 'dislodge' them.

- Perhaps to also say that they count as the speed that the formation is moving at...[to ignore any further problems].

It's a hell of an abstraction, but I really think it's the best way to go...

Xisor

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Tau Empires - Sniper Gun Drone Teams

Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:40 pm

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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
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Location: Singapore

Personally, I think that this unit will be very difficult to implement in EA. For example, it will probably require the addition of another type of drone, without the mini for it, and that is a no-no. Detaching the drones from the FW controller is also troublesome to do. The only way that this unit can make it is by warping and abstracting them... unless they simply add the Sniper ability to a standard Drone contingent.

I dont think that this unit has much of a place in the EA list.

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Honda

Post subject: Tau Empires - Sniper Gun Drone Teams

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:08 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
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Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

I can't say that I'd lose much sleep if they didn't show up. However, it occurred to me that one very simple way to represent the "capability" is to allow it as an upgrade to FW cadres, and give them the Sniper ability.

Just a thought.

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Tau Empires - Sniper Gun Drone Teams

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:14 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
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Tis also I think fairly easy to show what units are snipers and what aren't (unlike marines) with the addition of a heavy drone or drone with pointy bit to the stand.

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Tactica

Post subject: Tau Empires - Sniper Gun Drone Teams

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:34 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

As mentioned elsewhere, I'm opposed to seeing sniper gun drones align with PF's. They are apples and oranges.

Just because they both have 4 man squads, both have 3 rail rifles with target locks - doesn't mean they are the same type of unit or even belong in the same type of formation.

The PF's are forward scouts, calling in CF, and taking shots at targets of opportunity, while marking targets for the army and remaining very mobile in the DF's.

The SGDT are operated by a FIRE WARRIOR drone contrller, not an elite trained PATHFINDER. The SGDT do not ride in DF in core design and are not nearly as mobile as a result. They do not mark targets for the rest of the army, they only mark targets for themselves. They are not scouts. They do not call in CF for the army in any way shape or form. They also benefit from the stealth shield generator to virually conceal them from all but the closest enemy units.

Apples and oranges when comparing SGDT to PF's. We would NOT be doing the core design justice to mix these two very different concepts IMHO.

Physical models - I imagine a FW drone controller with tripod and 3 drones per stand. From a conversion stand point, a FW with crisis body (no extremities) would get close to setting up the controller. The drones with Rail rifles are easier. Regular drones with longer central mount gun (pole) or whatever would get you pretty close. Converting a stand would probably be pretty easy actually.

In game terms, its pretty much a given that the SGDT would have Rail rifles with Target lock as a weapon profile. I see the network markerlight as a bonus to their 'to hit' value in their weapon stats - as that's all we've really done in the past. The SGDT definitely deserve Sniper ability in E:A.

I think we should revise the stealth field generator to no shots at them unless within 30cm range - period. (I think the same should be for the stealth teams too - I also think I'm alone on this point, but anything else is a gross abstraction of the intended effect by the designers).

I also think the Rail rifle should have an AT value of 6+. Like the Stealth Field generator suggestion - I'm sure I stand alone on these two fronts. However, I wanted to express my opinion nonetheless.

As an UPGRADE to a formation, the SGDT would be a no brainer as 3 units of 4 models (1 controller, 3 drones) if we looked at Tau Empires for guidance of a unit size. I think the 3 units makes sense as an upgrade size in E:A as that's what a single force org choice is in 40K. The SGDT unit type would align closest with the FW Cadre as an UPGRADE since the drone controller is a FIRE WARRIOR. The problem is we get into using them in a fashion that they weren't even intended for. They are meant to be the ghost. The invisible formation out there that the enemy must get close to in order to deal with. (heh - just like the stealths) so my preference is to NOT see these as an upgrade, but as a stand alone formation. So moving on...

The SGDT clearly operate as indepenedents though - thus the stealth field generator to conceal them. That's why I prefer to see these guys implimented as a stand alone formation vs. an upgrade. If we wanted to, they could easily double in size for a stand alone formation of 6-units at the E:A scale. This is where the 'not being targetted unless within 30cm would come into play. Since the SGDT weapons are only 30cm themselves in E:A - can't really see this as being much of a problem frankly. Yes they are harder to kill because you have to be close - but that's the whole point.

With an AP and AT shot, the formation would be flexible and representative of the S6 weaponry.

Disrupt I could go either way on with this formation.

To me, these guys deliver SOO much more value to the E:A Tau in a stand alone formation role when compared to the promise of the Stingwing Vespids.

Just my thoughts though.

Cheers,

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Tau Empires - Sniper Gun Drone Teams

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:01 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London

Sniper and AT6+ means flak hunting. Is that a common role for such a unit?

As for pathfinder mobility- they can't be that mobile with 3 move or fire weapons every 5 men

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semajnollissor

Post subject: Tau Empires - Sniper Gun Drone Teams

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:12 pm

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Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:38 pm
Posts: 1673
Location: Chattanooga, TN, USA

Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 11 April 2006 (13:01))

Sniper and AT6+ means flak hunting. Is that a common role for such a unit?

Well, hard to say since there is no "flak" in 40k. Although, I could imagine these guys hunting rhino-hull, chimera-hull, and falcon-hull variants (although, it would be a waste [in 40k] unless no other targets are around). Against flak wagons they would be killer.

Really, only the marines would be overly affected, since their flak is so concentrated into a few units. That might be enough reason not to include the AT ability.

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Tactica

Post subject: Tau Empires - Sniper Gun Drone Teams

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:20 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 11 April 2006 (13:01))

Sniper and AT6+ means flak hunting. Is that a common role for such a unit?

Considering the an E:A SGDT is going to be moving 15cm to get their 30cm guns in range most of the time, I hardly see 'flak hunting' as their primary role - LOL.

Its true though, it could happen.

Regards to whether or not they do this. I don't know about SGDT. If the enemy allows them to move up the flank, it could happen.

[Digression Mode - enter flashback]
OH MAN, If I had a quarter every time I drove my DF up the flank of a 40K field to drop out the PF's (with rail rifles) and take out a basalisk, chimera, or leman russ from the side or rear armor! Hah - this is a classic pathfinder tactic in 40K which is very common with the Rail rifles - you got that dead on TRC! Good catch!
[/Digression Mode - fade back to virtual reality]

Now, back to Sniper Drones - their 15cm move means they probably aren't going to be doing the same thing. They are probably going to be hanging back providing covering fire and what not to the force. Advancing with the main line perhaps. Don't know - haven't tested them yet.

As for pathfinder mobility- ?they can't be that mobile with 3 move or fire weapons every 5 men

back to PFs...

For that matter, all markerlights are move or fire weapons in 40K TOO! LOL - then again, so are missile launchers, lascannons, mortars, etc.

The difference is that the Pathfinders also get to move in a skimmer instead of a standard ground based vehicle. They also get the "SCOUT" ability which puts them out ahead of the main force in 40K. They also have pulse carbines to provide fire "on the move" that are also S5. Those weapons can break the rear and side armor of many vehicles too.

Yeah - they are QUITE mobile compared to the sniper gun drone formation - and any other heavy weapon based infantry in 40K... LOL.

Cheers,

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Rob

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Nerroth

Post subject: Tau Empires - Sniper Gun Drone Teams

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:48 pm

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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:00 pm
Posts: 573
Location: Canada

I wish they had have gone with putting Tetras in the new codex and forgotten about the Sniper Drones... don't like the feel of them at all.

Gary

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Tactica

Post subject: Tau Empires - Sniper Gun Drone Teams

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:34 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Quote (Nerroth @ 12 April 2006 (15:48))

I wish they had have gone with putting Tetras in the new codex and forgotten about the Sniper Drones... don't like the feel of them at all.

Gary

Although I'm with you on including the tetras in the 40K codex, I'm quite pleased with the SGDT in 40K.

They afford the Tau army a way to get more 'heavier' shots in their list from three different units which can deal with vehicles and heavier infantry (everything but termys) but only taking up one of their force org slots in doing so.

If they made them points efficient, then that's a real value to the 40K tau tournament force.

Time will tell on the points efficiency side though.

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CyberShadow

Post subject: Tau Empires - Sniper Gun Drone Teams

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:29 am

Swarm Tyrant

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Posts: 9349
Location: Singapore

I certainly like the Sniper Drones in 40K more than the Piranha variants. The only trouble is that I cant quite see how or why they would ever really get developed in the first place...

"Well, we have these fully autonomous Drones, but what we really need to do is put a Fire Warrior controlling three of them...?"

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Tactica

Post subject: Tau Empires - Sniper Gun Drone Teams

Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:17 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

CS,

Its true that sniper gun drones rely on a drone controller. However, they are not alone by any means! Almost all of the Drones rely on a drone controller.

As an added bonus, the SGDT drone controller is a FW with a networked Marker Light and a persoanl Stealth Shield Generator that he's managing on that tripod!

Regarding drone controllers though, the same is said about Shield Drones. They always require a drone controller. They are attached to a character with the drone controller technology in those cases.

As a third case, you also have Marker Drones that only operate with a drone controller, like the shield drones. They first appeared in IA3.

Fourth, you have the regular gun drones. They have a drone controller and character option as well.

Gun Drones are the hybrid drones so-to-speak in that they can also operate alone without a controller. The best of both worlds. The difference here is the gun drones also have the AI to work as a stand alone team. However, the side effect of this technology is when they don't have enough - the networked AI drops significantly.

Finally we have the Heavy Gun Drones. Larger chassis = more AI appearently. These guys always form their own unit. They are NEVER taken as a retinue for a chacter as they don't require a drone controller. These are the only drones that don't have a drone controller option.
The rail drones are like the shield drones in that they don't have a stand alone option.

So you see - a Drone Controller is the norm - its the gun drones and the Heavy Gun Drones that are the two odd balls!

The only out of the ordinary thing about the sniper gun drone team's Drone Controller is that it also has 2 other unit defining pieces of technology on it. Stealth Field Generator and the Networked Marker Light.

Its also worth noting that each SNiper Gun Drone model carries their own Stealth Field Generator like their controller and like the Stealth Suit Team.

Cheers,

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Rob

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