Tactical Command
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A fun challenge
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5568		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  A fun challenge
I thought it would be usefull if we could all try and think up some off the wall combos for the list, stuff that you think could be overpowering. Once there are a few up here we can pick them appart and see if any merit testing to see if there are any 'obviously' abusable flaws in the list.

Oh, and to say why a list is/isn't an abuse you have to first think of  something which could be :)

To kick things off heres one that has come up in a different thread.
9 Orca (as bombers/objective claimers)
Some other stuff, mostly big resilant formations, overall about 14-15 actiations overall.

And a more conventional abuse (maybe).
Crisis with supreme comander
3 formations of Hammerheads, (2 Ion, 1 swordfish upgrade, 1 network drone, 2 lots of drones)
4 pathfinders
2 Human garrisons

Lots of activations, tanks and infantry (elite and otherwise)
Author:  clausewitz [ Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  A fun challenge
TRC, can you explain why the second list might be consider abusive?  Its 10 activations, which doesn't seem excessive.  It has swapped extra tanks in for any support type formations (eg Tau arty, piranhas/stingrays).  It relies on Ion cannons for AA.

Is it just that you think that the AMHC, Pathfinder Cont. and Gue'vesa Aux. formations are the "best per points cost" formations?  And maxing out on them might be bad?

(I'm hoping I haven't missed something obvious here)
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  A fun challenge
Actually, CW, I think he is angling for the Swordfish upgrades rather than the AMHC, but otherwise I think you are correct that TRC is looking at an aggregate of what appear (to him) to be slightly overpowered formations becoming overwhelming when taken together.
Author:  Tactica [ Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  A fun challenge
Since this is the 3 of 3 threads where this topic now appears...

=======

In effort to bring the 9 Orca conversations from hypothetical back into reality just a little bit...

In my opinion, there's a risk of running into any of the following in a tournament. Activation driven blast marker creating ORCA armies may have their challenges to prosper if they run into these kinds of armies at the local tourny venue...

1) Tactical Marine heavy armies which require double BM to break

2) Majority fearless army with low initiatives

3) Tyranid army which ignore ALL blast markers

4) enemy flier fighter heavy armies ?

5) Air-Transport heavy enemy infantry armies capable of combat prowess (Eldar, Orcs, Marines) ready to assault as soon as you land an Orca to claim an objective.

So to those that want to play the 9 orca army - play it!

Lets see some results against all 5 of the above and see what your results are.

With results in hand and Bat Reps posted - let us then discuss whether there is a real problem with the potential of seeing a 9 orca army in a tourny.

Until then - back onto more pressing issues, like getting v4.4 created and posted into the vault as we are LONG overdue on that front!

:alien:

Cheers,
Author:  Honda [ Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  A fun challenge

Actually, CW, I think he is angling for the Swordfish upgrades rather than the AMHC, but otherwise I think you are correct that TRC is looking at an aggregate of what appear (to him) to be slightly overpowered formations becoming overwhelming when taken together.


This is directed more towards TRC, than Neal and I'm not attempting to be overly pessimistic, however...

As much as I understand why this exercise might be undertaken, I'm really struggling with the value of said exercise.

You're basing your comments on perceptions, not observations.

I think I'd struggle with this a lot less if you said, "I was thinking about this list the other day and we played a game with it and this is what we noticed..."

Instead of hypothesizing that there "might" be a problem.

Perhaps I'm just a little too practical, but this seems like an awful lot of energy expended for very little result.
Author:  Nerroth [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  A fun challenge
Well, at least the 9 orca list would be a good excuse to bring a Custodian!

Well, in a 3600+ point list, at least (or 7 Orcas + Custodian in 3000)

What about maxing out on Morays and Scorpionfish (take 4 Scorpionfish per Core choice) - would that be a bit much? Especially with Core AMHC options.

Although you'd be a bit short on Pathfinders or Tetra formations to make use of those missiles...


Gary
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  A fun challenge
If you want to destruct test stuff you have to have a point from which to do it. So people thinking what combos could have the edge on others are a good starting point. Look at the 'Guard lots of lists are fairly similar (i.e Russ and supreme commander formation) as there are good combos - however they aren't overpowering.

It is good to find out what are optimun combos and see how well they fare.

Can you think of any?

Re the hammerheads and stuff. I think its good and its something I would consider for a tourney - now is it to good. If someone can point out why not it would go into the catergory of good but not overpowering and I'd try to think of something else, and then give that a try. (Especially useful if you now have very limited chances to playtest.)

1) Tactical Marine heavy armies which require double BM to break
>>>>>>>>>
There won't be many rhinos left will there? And have you seen how good the Tau are at greasing infantry (especially pathfinders, my favourite unit?)

2) Majority fearless army with low initiatives
>>>>>>>>>
You mean Chaos don't you :) Here the activation advantage remains, and some units are vulnerable (and shortly will be very dead). At least broken fearless stuff doesn't shoot back and with my tough big hamerhead formation and the like I should be able to shoot them up or take blastmarker laden assualts.

3) Tyranid army which ignore ALL blast markers
>>>>>>>>>
By far the trickyist (they don't even get supressed? The blighters). Here its activations and sniping and hopeing the big formations have enough firepower to shred them.

4) enemy flier fighter heavy armies  
>>>>>>>>
No worries, I'm a long ranged flak force.

5) Air-Transport heavy enemy infantry armies capable of combat prowess (Eldar, Orcs, Marines) ready to assault as soon as you land an Orca to claim an objective.
>>>>>>>>
True - however the rest of their army will be pretty dead by the time they land and with my good flak and skimmers and similar air assualts aren't a sure thing against me.

Until then - back onto more pressing issues, like getting v4.4 created and posted into the vault as we are LONG overdue on that front!


Oh its far from a pressing issue, I'm not saying things should get derailed because of it.
Author:  Tactica [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  A fun challenge
TRC,

Again - you post more hypothetical opinion based analysis... just in case you missed the previous part of my post that you did not respond too...

So to those that want to play the 9 orca army - play it!

Lets see some results against all 5 of the above and see what your results are.

Not more hypothetical analysis

With results in hand and Bat Reps posted - let us then discuss whether there is a real problem with the potential of seeing a 9 orca army in a tourny.

Looking forward to your results.



Author:  CyberShadow [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  A fun challenge
Personally, I think that this kind of speculative thinking is useful, as a background process. These combinations and variations will emerge eventually, and I would rather that they were aired here, first.
Author:  Steele [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  A fun challenge
Quote (Nerroth @ 03 Mar. 2006 (00:08))
Well, at least the 9 orca list would be a good excuse to bring a Custodian!

Well, in a 3600+ point list, at least (or 7 Orcas + Custodian in 3000)

What about maxing out on Morays and Scorpionfish (take 4 Scorpionfish per Core choice) - would that be a bit much? Especially with Core AMHC options.

Although you'd be a bit short on Pathfinders or Tetra formations to make use of those missiles...


Gary

Always present when Your Caste is needed?!! :D  :p

Cheers!
Steele
Author:  Tactica [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  A fun challenge
[quote="The_Real_Chris,03 Mar. 2006 (02:30)"][/quote]
If you want to destruct test stuff you have to have a point from which to do it. So people thinking what combos could have the edge on others are a good starting point. Look at the 'Guard lots of lists are fairly similar (i.e Russ and supreme commander formation) as there are good combos - however they aren't overpowering.

It is good to find out what are optimun combos and see how well they fare.

Can you think of any?

This part of your post is much more valuable to me personally TRC.

I summarize this as 'stress' or 'extreme testing'. I do think the 'stress testing' excersize is very useful.

It cannot be all hypothetical banter though. It has to be the TESTING of the ideas to break a list. Brainstorming is fine, but unless its backed up by a series of playtests against a whole series of test subjects and their various armies... i.e. 5+ games at least and ideally 10+ - it just doesn't typically have much merit.

1 or 2 results from the same player - against one 1 or 2 opponents with 1 or 2 armies doesn't prove much in many cases.

What happens if you take all of the same cadre for example... all crisis, all FW, or all AMHC... can you make that work in a tourny?

(I can tell you that I've already tried all AMHC - it doesn't work at all :p I just simply cannot imagine all FW or Crisis working.)

What if you take an army of all of the most powerful formations in the list... (I think that's what you are getting at in your portion of the post when you suggest the following...


3 formations of Hammerheads, (2 Ion, 1 swordfish upgrade, 1 network drone, 2 lots of drones)
4 pathfinders
2 Human garrisons

However, I don't consider this a strong force against my opponents. I "think" I would get mopped up against! So I think this is a great force for you to try out in your local arena as you think it might be over the top... to me, it's a bit lacking on paper. I don't think I could hope to survive against black legion or orcs with this list! Eldar, Orc and marine air assaults would just eat it alive early on if the hammerheads were not grossly insulated by the IG - which of course makes the list susptable to BP arillery that the orcs, Eldar, and IG are so fond of. So I wouldn't even consider taking this list you presented in my circle.

I think its better to speculate on an imbalance *offline*, playtest it offline, then report it online to see if others can duplicate your stress-test findings.

Regards to whether *I* can think of any or not... Well, its all speculation until proven isn't it? However, if you are looking for something to try... I'd like you to go try the all Kroot and Fire Warrior infantry force. It could be imbalancing in that it horde the opponent into submission.

14 activations, 130 units, 2700 list, 125 points to spare.

1000 - 5x Firwarrior Formations (40 units)
1575 - 9x Kroot Formations (90 kroot units)

125 - points to spare.

Go fourth, test and report your findings... :/

Cheers,



Author:  Nerroth [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  A fun challenge
Quote (Steele @ 03 Mar. 2006 (17:20))
Quote (Nerroth @ 03 Mar. 2006 (00:08))
Well, at least the 9 orca list would be a good excuse to bring a Custodian!

Well, in a 3600+ point list, at least (or 7 Orcas + Custodian in 3000)

What about maxing out on Morays and Scorpionfish (take 4 Scorpionfish per Core choice) - would that be a bit much? Especially with Core AMHC options.

Although you'd be a bit short on Pathfinders or Tetra formations to make use of those missiles...


Gary

Always present when Your Caste is needed?!! :D  :p

Cheers!
Steele

I don't follow you.


Which part are you replying to?


Gary
Author:  Steele [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  A fun challenge
Quote (Nerroth @ 03 Mar. 2006 (20:21))
Quote (Steele @ 03 Mar. 2006 (17:20))
Quote (Nerroth @ 03 Mar. 2006 (00:08))
Well, at least the 9 orca list would be a good excuse to bring a Custodian!

Well, in a 3600+ point list, at least (or 7 Orcas + Custodian in 3000)

What about maxing out on Morays and Scorpionfish (take 4 Scorpionfish per Core choice) - would that be a bit much? Especially with Core AMHC options.

Although you'd be a bit short on Pathfinders or Tetra formations to make use of those missiles...


Gary

Always present when Your Caste is needed?!! :D ?:p

Cheers!
Steele

I don't follow you.


Which part are you replying to?


Gary

Man, you stated to bring 9 Orcas you would/could also bring the Custodian. Your favorite. And because of your many Spaceship related posts.

Cheers!
Steele
Author:  clausewitz [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  A fun challenge
Tactica, only one Alien Auxiliary formation per Cadre is allowed. :)

One other thought..

Brainstorming is fine, but unless its backed up by a series of playtests against a whole series of test subjects and their various armies... i.e. 5+ games at least and ideally 10+ - it just doesn't typically have much merit.

Lets be realistic, none of the changes we've been making have undergone such rigorous testing.  I agree that ideally that would be how things are done, but it is just not possible. (Or am I wrong, does anyone know of an example?)
Author:  Nerroth [ Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:59 pm ]
Post subject:  A fun challenge
I could take 9 Grenadier Companies via Orca (or 8 Companies and 1 HQ formation) in my list, too!

Go Custodian!





Plus one of the Protectors I use as Morays.


Gary
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