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Got a 4K game in

Tactica

Post subject: Got a 4K game in

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:52 pm

Brood Brother

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Got a game in this weekend against the dreaded IG mechanized division of Stygies VIII forgeworld. 4000 points, on a still working but decaying forgeworld.

TAU WIP v4.2.8
550 FW Cad, 2 Ion-head, 2 crisis, 1 shas'o
575 AMHC, 2 Rail-heads, 1 Skyray

500 Rail Head Contingent, 2 swordfish upg, 1 Ion & 1 Rail-head upgrade, 1 skyray
550 Stingray contingent, 2 stingray upg, 1 skyray upg, 4 piranha upg
300 broadsides
275 Stealthsuits

600 Rail-cannon morays
150 A-X-10, light railcannon variant Tiger Shark
[edit: should be 175 - I cheated my opponent by 25 points - sorry Andy!]
150 Hero
100 Orca
250 Barracuda Superriority Fighter

SL IG - from memory
Tank co + 3 griffons + hydra
Shadowsword SHT Co + hydra + 3 leman russ MBT
Mech Inf Co + 4 support w/2 chimeras + hydra

3 Manticores
3 Manticores
3 Hydra flak
2 Deathstrikes
4 Vultures
4 Valkyries + 8 Storm Troopers
8 Roughriders**
4 Sentinels**

We realized before deployment that he had too many non-company formations, but it was intentional as we upped the points from 3500 to 4000 at the last minute and I agreed to the slightly skewed roster vs. waiting for him to recalculate everything.

I'll skip the full battle report as I don't have all the info down. We weren't really playtesting as much as just getting a last game in at my old place before I packed up the gaming room 1) for holidays and 2) for the move as I'm moving the family across town right after christmas.

The Tau player is marginally a better Epic player GW gaming strategist historically speaking and is typically thought of as the guy to beat. However, the Imperial player is probably in the top 4 epic players out of 15 or so in the area and in the top 3 40K players out of 100 or so, therefore, he's not a bad opponent by any stretch.

Table size 4' x 8'.

The IG set the table up, and Tau took the side that allowed more LOS blocking terrain both in deployment, and midfield on the tau table side. The IG player may have made that side tempting as his side had plenty of lines and offered all the infantry to get quite dug in while the tanks were all - even the superheavies - were all deployed in cover. Both manticores were deployed out of LOS on either corner of the IG deployment. The roughriders, valkyeries, vultures, and sentinels all dug into a forward position around the IG left most objective (from tau perspective) and out of LOS behind a large L shaped manufactory ruin that completely hid the formations from LOF from anywhere in the tau deployment.

The Shadowsword was immediately left of center, infantry co was center, and tank co was immediately right of center. They were all surrounding the deathstrikes in back and center. All of this is from the Tau perspective of the field.

The Tau deployment was interesting.

Hero - turn 1
? Morays - on hero (turn 1 planetfall)
Orca - off table flier
? Broadsides - on Orca
Tiger Shark - off table flier
Barracuda - off table fliers
Stealth - off table teleporters (and they were never used)

So I deployed the AMHC to the left out of LOS in deep trenches. The FW Cadre was left of center out of LOS behind a large mounded up ruin. The Stingrays were right behind the mound next to the FW. The HH Contingent was on the extreme right of the field in another LOS blocking deep trenchline. So from deployment - there was no tau to be seen from the IG lines!

Significant events:

Tau went first in turns 1, 3, and 4. This was due to pure rolls.
On turn 2, the IG player couldn't roll better than a 2 for strategy, and I rolled a 1 - so he did finally get to go first in that turn at least!

Going first in the majority of the game wasn't all it was cracked up to be. On turn 1, Tau started off by rolling a 1, then rolling another 1 for SC when trying to advance the FW and mark up the forward scout position of the IG. Once the IG had successfully activated, I proceded to roll another 1 on my next activation attempt in turn 1. SO in the end, it was kind of like he (IG) went first turns 1 and 2 and I (Tau) went first on turns 3 and 4.

I forgot to use my stealth all 4 turns of the game. At 275 points, that's a lot of 'ooops' over 4 turns.

Barracudas and FW activations were failed on turn 1...

AMHC ?would take a beating by the rapidly approaching vultures and the right up close and personal valkeryies and storm troopers... that sucked.. the AMHC didn't lose too much due to being in cover, but the manticore disrupt accumulated BM like it was nothing on the AMHC and the FW Cadre! I had to marshal with 2 BM away from exploding the AMHC, and I failed the roll to activate - adding another BM... so we held and regrouped - still leaving 2 BM.

Broadsides would land on the far right of the field next to the basically abandoned manticores and would kill all 3 with ease, however, the orca and the broadsides now dug into cover, would await the counter of the tank co making a double to get into range and around some LOF blocking terrain that the broadsides were cowering behined.. The tanks only singled which suprised me and then fired on the broadsides with everything but the hydras and griffons which were out of range, They scored 10 shots got 4 hits due to firing into cover. They killed one putting two blast markers on the 3 man formation. The orca would leave the battlefield with 1 blast marker and no damage.

On turn 1, I did manage to hold out long enough for him to have to manouver all that AA cover around a bit before attempting a death or glory on the deathstrikes. My spaceship was going to land the moray on turn 1, and I had to clear a path... the SHT and the deathstrikes hadn't activated yet... I was running out of activations. My tiger would zing in only being fired on by 2 hydras from its best flight path... the IG player hits on 5s and rolls 5,5,6, and something else for the hits! I have 4+ save. I manage to make 2 of the 3 saves, take a couple blast markers and my point of damage. He rolls the dice for critical... I kid you not, it was skidding across the table on a 6 - it was like slow motion... and then fell off the table! I Roared with excitement! His mouth just hung open! He rolled again and got something that was not a 6.

~

So the Tiger proceeded to wreck the deathstrikes! The tiger would not live to exit the field, so the triumph was bitter sweet. The path for the morays had been cleared.

Later in the turn, I flew in the hero - it targetted the yet to activate superheavies and blasted one apart and put 2 hits on another. I roll a critical and nothing! 6 blast markers 10 hits left on the formation...

The morrays dropped in and managed to stay together. the DZ was 50cm onto the table and 70cm to the left, then 15cm toward the SHT co. The first scattered 6 cm but the second got a hit (with box cars rolled for distance mind you!) So we retained with no SC in the pocket and attempted to sustain fire on the SHT co.... again, I roll a 1!!! Oh that's frustrating. So instead of sustaining - we hold. We also take a blast marker.

The moray railcannons come to bare. They are firing a tanks which are literrally in the ruin, so going from 3's to 4's. The target isn't marked either so the tracers have no chance of hitting. The massive guns of the Moray score two MW/TK hits... but, it doesn't matter as the closest two targets are leman russ - so two of those tanks die.

(I was really wishing I had taken the ion-phalanx guns instead of the railcannons at this point)

However, that's 3 more blast markers now... and the formation just went from 10 hits remaining to 8 hits remaining (2 SHT 1 LRMBT and 1 Hydra) and it just went from 6 BM to 9 BM... so - bam, it breaks! WHoohoo!

The IG infantry co proceed to move once and deploy, then dump an increadible amount of fire into the Morays. They do 1 point of damage to one, and they do two points of damage to the other. Plus it came under fire, plus it already had one blast marker on it... so that was 5 hits... the damn sentinels moved over and shot at the morays to make them break... LOL... that was pathetic! So morrays route to the left flank.

The HH Contingent on the right side of the Tau field doubled up to a bridge and popped up to fire on the broken SHT co that was hiding in the IG side of the middle of the field, but forward a bit behind a bunker like structure. We managed to finish off that formation as we got a critical and coming under fire when broken plus some damage wiped out the formation. Thank you for the critical - or the formaiton would have stayed around to deliver more pain.

Moving this formation forward when broke was easily the IG players only mistake. He thought he was safe, but forgot about the dug in HH upgraded contingent on the right side of the field. Just an oops. This cost him a very important formation as there's no way my formation would have done that kind of damage had they not been broke, furthermore, he had the opportunity to back them up when the broke and put them behind a large ruin... so... 'training excersize'.

That's basically how turn 1 ended.

Turn 2:
Everything on the right side of the IG field picked on the broken moray until it died. (vultures, sentinels, infantry, 2 point bp manticore) It was just a matter of time... all that little crap fire would eventually take downt he broken moray on turn 3.

The AMHC would move up and wipe out the hydras on the left, clearing a path for the barricudas

The barracudas would fly in and kill one manticore on the other left corner, causing the 3 tank formation to break.

The stingrays and FW cadre would work on the IG infantry in center field, they would return the favor.

The HH contingent on the right side would put more punishment on the LRMBT before it could wipe out the broadsides and make them think about marshal or sustain firing, they would attempt to marshal, fail, and force to regroup with no shooting!

The broadsides would put more fire on the LRMBT co. The orca would fly in and pick up the broadsides on the right.

Turn 3:
Like I said, the moray took more fire on turn two, wouldn't rally (again) and thus would eventually die this turn. (I hate that... once the morays are on the field, they never seem to rally once broken... so I would give up the break their spirit victory condition on this turn - again, to tiny little bitty pee shooter fire!

However, we would force a turn 4 even though we held no victory conditions.

The sting rays had to move up and contest the IG's objective that the infantry were holding while taking out the valkyries and setting up a cross fire position on the infantry. The FW and AMCH would finish off the rallied manticores and sentinels.

The Orca would move in and drop off broadsides mid field holding an objective, and again, they would dump 2 stands of (1 still had a blast marker on it when they deployed) into the LRMBT co and again placed more blast markers on the formation killing 1 or two tanks again. The HH Contingent on the bridge went to overwatch... just in case the LRMBT co got brave... and they did.

The LRMBT co would double up to a position where it could fire on the HH contingent in the open with no LOF blocked. However, that was a second mistake. Pow - the HH contingent would break the LRMBT co and kill 3 or so tanks with a great amount of hits (finally I broke that formation!!! Blah!)

The barracudas died on the end of this turn, but I don't remember how exactly...

IG still had 1 (BtS) and Tau had none.

Turn 4
The tank co didn't rally - whoohoo... unfortunately, I couldn't capitalize and get the BtS as the RA was just tough, and he withdrew them to cover so made my shots hard to stack up anyway.. oh well, at least they weren't pounding me.

My first activation was to take advantage of the risky crossfire I set up on the infantry. It was a bit ball-zee as I was gambling that I would go first on turn 4... if I hadn't, I would have surely gotten charged by the infantry co from their cover position. However, the crossfire set up paid off. The stingrays within 15cm of the enemy and piranhas to support - 8 strong instead of 10 and 1 blast marker on the formation - blasted away with ignore cover, now in postion for a sustained fire crossfire. That did the trick, SC died and the formation would break. Midfield was ours and ripe for the taking!

4-tank vulture squad would be broken and the remaining two valkyries with 2 storm troopers would also perish to the last man/tank. So nothing held the tau left side of the field - except the FW cadre, the AMHC, and the Stingray formation now - even though all were pretty beat up!

Since the LRMBT didn't rally, the HH contingent and the wounded broadsides held that side.

So we gained two objectives on the IG side, had to abaindon our own blitz objective, but did hold the two objectives at center line on our side - which meant nothing... so that put us at 1 and 1... LOL...

At this point, I had already used the SC for turn 4... so I activated the orca and landed at the opponent's blitz objective. Successful... and since everything around it was broken, the Tau got the blitz objective via landed flier. ?

2:1 Tau!!! Whoo-hoo.

OK, well - that got a whole lot longer than I originally anticipated, so maybe it was closer to a battle report than I originally anticipated.

Noteworthy findings.
The skyray with 3 shots was a better value, but still heavily dependant upon the ML to be effective at either ground or air targets. Unfortunately, my markerlight equipped formations were not always in the right place at the right time, so their presence didn't matter in the game really.

The piranha and stingray formation did OK, but unless that formation gets close, it just doesn't work for me. However, once it could sustain with crossfire against IG that had no armor - well, that was sick then! This is a very fragile and situational formation as a result.

The Morays ... I should have taken the ion-phalanxs... they would have been sooo much better against that shadowsword formation I think. I was hoping he'd take a titan or two so I could punish them. as a result, the morays were very unimpressive this game. 600 points for 2 hits and two tank kills... that was the worst they had ever done. If anyone was ever worreid about people not taking ion-phalanx, I think I'll be considering those my staple weapon, and I'll take the railcannon as needed. The railcannon is very powerful - if there's a target to capitalize on it with.

I brought the morays via ship on turn 1 too. I usually have to wait until turn 2 as my opponnent has a ship and usually has a higher strategy and usually has their ship on turn 1... so perhaps this has been a blessing in disguise. By turn 2, lots of damage has been caused on turn 1, and some amount of activation and turn 2 damage is already underway. Having the morays dropped on turn 1 only added to their eventual demise. Always being seen by all the enemy guns is brutal!

The worse thing though was not being able to rally them two turns in a row. It was further dissapointing that sentinels broke them but whatcha gonna do... coming under fire is a bummer. I really wish the moray and manta were init 1 like the imperial titans. Instead of a broken moray with enemy nearby needing a 5+ to rally, a 4+ would at least put it rallying over two turns on average. People seem to love to race up to my broken morays just to loiter! ? :angry:

It would be nice maybe to have a Moray commander... err... leader.

The stealths... well, I've used them with teleport before, but this game, I just forgot to grab them each turn because the action was so intense and I was pre-occupied... LOL, or at least that's my excuse. They would have been a welcomed edition as they had markerlights I needed to get into the hot zone. Oh well...

The tiger shark with light railcannons was pleasing. Primarily due to its heroic sacrifice. The guns still feel like they are working just right. 45cm meant I had to get in close. I had to wait to use the model until I could get the enemy to draw out a little bit. I couldn't chance flying in the face of 3 hydras, but 2 ended up being doable. The bomber seemed a bit fragile, but I flew through 3 hydras in the end, and those things are nasty... and he rolled good. SO, can't really complain. I took them on a dangerous mission and was rewarded, even if only momentarily.

I will continue to play them in games where I can afford them.

Commander ala crisis upgrade into FW. Well, the infantry crisis again worked out fine in the FW cadre. That was cheapest way to get the shas'o. This really nerf's the crisis value as a jumping fast moving unit as the FW slow you down, but coupled with the ion-heads, the formation was a fun formation that was kinda - jack of all trades, master of none. It served its purpose. It would have been better to have some devilfish to gain the speed back, but I ran out of points... more importantly, I forgot to buy them. ?

The orca with the broadside tactic was fun. I noticed I couldn't give drones to the broadsides and put them on the orca though... that really didn't feel right at all! A guy in our group has an orca, and that thing holds a lot of models. It seems like the broadsides plus drones should have fit on the orca. It makes the broadside formation uber fragile to put them in an orca and go hunting. This is something that really didn't feel right.

Outside of that, BM management was a pain - again. I spent so much time marshaling and firing at -1. The BM managmenet just isn't there so in order to keep from breaking and rallying on a 5 when the enemy was close by (due to our not so good initiative) I was scrambling to marshal some formation every turn. In addition, I was going into every turn with several formations with at least 1 blast marker on them. I used my SC reroll every turn of the game. My opponent didn't have to. That stunk. I look forward to the day when we have a handle on the BM management issue.

This for me is the biggest issue in the list right now.

All in all, my opponent and I had a lot of laughs. This game was super tight and down to the wire. I definitely look forward to a rematch!

_________________
Rob

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The_Real_Chris

Post subject: Got a 4K game in

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:04 pm

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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:45 pm
Posts: 8139
Location: London

Whys it an issue, you won

Seriously though don't get the skyray comment or were you refering to it in a non AA role (the G didn't seem to have aircraft).

Disturbingly theres a TAU bottle of drinking water sitting next to this computer. It seems welsh.

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Tactica

Post subject: Got a 4K game in

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:51 pm

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

TRC,

Why an issue?

Because I play the game for the enjoyment, not for win / lose. I want the list to feel right as much as be viable. To quote honda, I don't want something that says, "Ha - I rolled a 3+, remove your warlord"... the list has to feel Tau to me. Units that should be implaccable should feel implaccable. Units that should feel threatening should do so as well.

Broadsides going into battle on orca for foward positioning _seem_ like they would not want to do so by themselves... that would be very foolish. Thus the orca comment.

Large menacing craft hoovering over a city being broken by a sentinel formation was well... embarrassing! To have them never rally due to needing a 5+ because there was loitering valkyries and vultures nearby that had used all of their good toys was also a bit disheartening. Why was such a craft having such a hard time rallying... it just didn't feel right - Win lose or draw.

On the other hand, my opponent kept rejoicing as I forgot to use my stealth, he kept hoping I'd forget so he could continue to ignore them for another turn while the manticores barraged away... ironically, that felt very right! The stealth really were not a massive threat to the manticores, but they did install a bit of panic as he knew they were there and they were just waiting to teleport in and mark something... damn if I could remember when the time was righ though - LOL.

The IG had no aircraft, you got it.

The Skyray in its new version is meant to take on a more MBT role appearently (see new codex and IA3 related threads). I was hoping to make use of it as more of a MBT role in this battle, but my marker light situation was all FUBAR due to activations and forgetting to use stealths, so it worked out that I didn't really get to see it in action. On the other hand, its potential - felt right, though I didn't seem to capitalize on it either. The Skyray felt right actually. It felt like it had a lot of potential. Had the IG brought on some planes, I felt like I was ready for them. Hindsight being 20/20 - since one of my markerlight formations didn't get used, and the other two stayed to the left side of the field... well, I probably would have had to play differently to maximize the use of my GM's.

Winning is one thing and dice can do that. "Feeling" right is probably what I was commenting on more than anything else.

BM Management. Initiative of certain units probably more than anything else. Constantly having to deal with the blast markers means constantly hoping for the best in activations and it means you are really playing with a strategy 3+ army for turns 2-4... that's a problem!

I had some horrible things happen to me in this game, there's no question about that, however, the big moments had a larger impact thankfully. I was also playing against a player that really made two gigantic errors. Advancing the SHT co and doubling the Tank Co into overwatched upgraded HH contingent. Both mistakes cost him dearly. One could argue that a further third mistake was to not use the deathstrikes on turn 1 after the tau failed to activate. He could have devistated a couple tanks instead of waiting on them to get shot up - or he could have deployed them to be under even more AA fire as he had it to spare... a possible 4th major blunder on his part may have been to deploy the manticores to the right side of the tau field by themselves with only the Tank Co to cover for them... in fact, that was an error.

So my only point in making these claims is yes, I won. However, the IG felt rock solid, deadly, and were tough as nails to deal with. My opponent although a tactically sound player - did make some real bad calls. 2-4 bad calls. Two of which directly impacted his success in the game. The other 2 of which I capitalized on.

So if we were both playing our "A-game", the Tau shouldn't have won this game IMHO. Now, of course that's speculation on my part, but to further speculate, the Tau list was out classed and got off to a bad start. A 2-1 on turn 4 was a narrow margin, and it was only because I landed an Orca to take the blitz objective or it would have been a draw.

For me, playtesting is not just "who won" but an effort analyze the situation for environmental impacts such as terrain and table size, and understanding of which list was more sound in construction and deployment considering the environments and how they stacked up to one another, an appreciation for which player had better tactics and overall strategy, and then come to a realization of which list was played to its potential.

From my perspective of the above analysis, yes I won, but I don't think I should have, and my comments are why.

Thanks for the comments TRC.

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Rob

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Dobbsy

Post subject: Got a 4K game in

Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:20 pm

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Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 4499
Location: Melbourne, Australia

From my perspective the Moray's seem to be the perfect fire distraction

Given what you said about everything moving towards them to fire at them you could use this to your advantage to draw the enemy into a beaten zone!

Make your drop area where your MLs mark and all your weapons can reach.

On the loadout for the Morays, how about one of each? You get a bit of AT kill with the RGs and a stack of firepower from the Ions for high-number formations.

Whys it an issue, you won

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Tactica

Post subject: Got a 4K game in

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:00 am

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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am
Posts: 2241

Quote (Dobbsy @ 19 Dec. 2005 (16:20))

Dobbsy,

Thanks for the comments.

From my perspective the Moray's seem to be the perfect fire distraction

Given what you said about everything moving towards them to fire at them you could use this to your advantage to draw the enemy into a beaten zone!

Make your drop area where your MLs mark and all your weapons can reach.

Ironically, that's exactly what happen. The AMHC, the FW, and the Stingrays were already on that side... the retreat of the morays took them right into the ML blanket of the stretched FW. The sentinels, valkyries, roughriders, and vultures were all marked once they moved to take the morays out. So... ironically, yeah, they were definitely the target of targets for me.

I've intentionally used them as diversionary before, but in this game, it was not the plan. Good silver lining on the cloud though. That's for sure. Good point too. In some situations, it may be better to plan on them diverting attention. Hmmm... I'll have to consider that in the next battle.

On the loadout for the Morays, how about one of each? You get a bit of AT kill with the RGs and a stack of firepower from the Ions for high-number formations.

This may be a better mode. I can manouvre and see saw the models to take damage as appropriate. I didn't like having all MW in this battle. I got out-metagamed perhaps. I'm usually cautious about mixing formations like that, however, that may be just what the doctor ordered for these guys. The punch of the MWTK may be reduced a bit, but the 6 AT shots against the armor and hydra would have been quite welcomed. AFter the shadowswords were dispatched, I would definitely wanted to have all ion-phalanx's... I could have used the Railcannon version as the forward unit had it rallied too... yeah, I think I'll give this a try Dobbsy. Thanks for the recomendation.

Whys it an issue, you won

Given this Tac', would you be certain you could do this again vs the same opponent with the same BM management? He would know how to deal with your forces better in my view. From the report, it seems like this was more of a "luckier" win (going against the trend of the bad BM management issue)rather than a planned/decisive one.
Well you have the latter correct. It was a bit luckier than planned win.

Depends upon what BM managment CS goes forward with.

In the next game, I suspect the isolated manticores are not isolated. That means no need for Orca drop on the flank. That means no sucker play to draw out the Leman co... that means the leman co is in position to deal with the morays easier... hmm... the shadowswords would not voluntarily move forward either so I could finish them off. Something tells me they will double behind that central terrain and go into hiding while they rally. Heh... boy would that stink. That means they would also probably rally and hold the BTS objective. that alone will really cramp my style next game.

Now, if the Morays had a better initiative or could have rallied, I'd also have that additional firepower that never rallied in this game as it needed a 5+... If I had remembered to use the stealths, that would help too.

Well, I don't know. Too many variables Dobbsy. I'd definitely be willing to give it a go - that's for sure. I'm about ready to move, but I may take a photo of the table and invite the guy back for a rematch. knowing what we know now, and seeing what kind of BM management and/or initiative changes some units may receive, it may be enough to push it over. However, there's quite a few variables. I definitely think I'll have a chance to actually play for the win instead of leverage to capitalize off of my opponent's mistakes. So, for what its worth, it would be movement in the right direction. The game was close enough, but with enough errors, that fix of known issues could only push things closer to center IMHO.

At such time, it would also be good to spin the tables and have him play the tau and have me play the IG in a third battle once BM management / initiative changes are in effect. This will further tell us how the changes impacted things.

Thanks for the report Tac'. It's shed some extra light on a couple of things for me.

My pleasure Dobbsy. Glad you found it helpful.

Cheers,

_________________
Rob

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clausewitz

Post subject: Got a 4K game in

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:25 pm

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Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:02 pm
Posts: 916
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Very interesting report Tactica, thanks for posting.

Just a thought.. is 8 "objective-claiming" formations enough @ 4k? Clearly it was in this game

but it seems you went for quite a low activations/points ratio.

You managed to bust the two "main" tough IG fomations (SHT & Tank). If the IG had managed to do the same to your two HH formations could you have managed?

Bet you were relieved when the DSMs died!

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Honda

Post subject: Got a 4K game in

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:20 pm

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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:44 pm
Posts: 1891
Location: Katy, Republic of Texas

First off, great report Tac. Very thought provoking.

My thoughts:

1. Lists: In general, I liked the forces you brought to the table and would feel comfortable playing them. I think I would have worked things around to get the Scorpionfish/Dragonfish group in there as I use them a lot and although I'm not a fan of Broadsides, I liked how you used them in your game.

The IG definitely had a pretty brutal list.

2. Morays: Your Morays always seem to take a lot of grief. However, I've also noticed that it may have to do with the armies you play against. IG in particular, don't have any trouble fielding units that can reach out and touch you in a painful way. That hasn't been been my experience to date, but fun games with IG and Eldar are in my future. Another thing I've noticed is that you tend to play at higher points levels (or at least this is my recollection) which lets the IG player bring everything, including their 3rd cousins. If you were going to set up a series of these games, it might be interesting to see what the game would be like at 2700.

I too, have come to the conclusion on the Ion-phalanx vs. the Rail gun. Although I still see a need, I think I value the number of shots that IP provides a little more now than the RC. Some of that has to do with our group not fielding much in the way of war engines/titans just yet, but I do know that that UM player is planning on adding Warhounds (on my recommendation) to give him the punch I think he is looking for. So perhaps after a short while I'll settle on 1 x IP + 1 x RC.

However, at 2700 pts, ?I don't know that I'm getting the value out of my Morays that I'm expecting, so for the next couple of games, they won't be showing up.

3. Long Range GM: It would have been interesting to see what the Stealth might have accomplished if they had been deployed. I don't really know this, but feel that even if they had landed, you may not have had enough GM's close enough to take advantage of their ML. Perhaps in the center, you might, but I'm not thinking that they would have helped you on the corners.

Would have been interesting to see the Sentry towers used as well.

4. Stingrays: I can see why one would upgrade the Stingrays with a Skyray, but for the life of me, I'm not sure I see why adding the Pirannha's adds value. Perhaps it's how I use the unit. Are the Pirannha's used to take out infantry transports (i.e. slow them down?).

5. Hammerheads: Lately, I have taken one all RG AMHC and one IC AMHC and task them according to what they do best. Perhaps it is how our relative opponents play, but mixing capabilities in units tends to leave me with unused shots, which I find very annoying. I see you mix capabilities fairly regularly, is that paying out for you?

6. BM Management: One thing that came to mind while reading the batrep, should ground units proximity (especially puny ones) really affect aerospace units ability to rally? Something to think about.

I know we are discussing BM management in another thread, but I wonder if the way we are approaching the problem has a simpler solution.

Maybe, BM issues are a function of the Tau list and we are just over costed? Perhaps, all Tau ground units should be costed at a -5% rounded up (just shooting arrows in the dark here) and that's how we deal with it.

That might be a little radical, but it might be worth discussing.

Great report and it will prepare me for the joys of playing against IG as we picked up a new player locally and he already has 5K of IG.

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Honda

"Remember Taros? We do"

- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

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clausewitz

Post subject: Got a 4K game in

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 4:12 pm

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Location: Glasgow, Scotland

6. BM Management: One thing that came to mind while reading the batrep, should ground units proximity (especially puny ones) really affect aerospace units ability to rally? Something to think about.

Honda, I would guess the difference is speed. Aircraft zoom across the battlefield and are thus immune to worry from "nearby" ground units. A Tau Support Craft, however, hovers relatively slowly across the battlefield, so those nearby "sentinals" could be taking the odd "pot shot" at it, keeping the crew paniced.

If the ability of the Moray to rally is deemed an issue that requires fixing (as Tactica seems to be suggesting), then I think changing the initiative to 1+ is simpler. Personally, I'm not convinced that this should be done, but I agree that it could use some discussion.

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Tactica

Post subject: Got a 4K game in

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:18 am

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Quote (clausewitz @ 20 Dec. 2005 (06:25))

Very interesting report Tactica, thanks for posting.

Just a thought.. is 8 "objective-claiming" formations enough @ 4k? Clearly it was in this game

but it seems you went for quite a low activations/points ratio.

CW,

Thanks for reading and the comments!

8 obj claiming... well... probably not. I'll be honest, I built the list on the fly as my friend said hey let's get a game of 40K in... and we did. It went so fast that we also threw together some Epic lists... OK, I threw my list together, his was already built at 3500 in advance of coming over. We just bumped his as he wanted the artillery in hindsite... and I built mine to match at 4K.

He told me "I'm playing some toys" and that got me thinking. I suppose I was assuming he was playing big stuff subconciously. I didn't know he meant deathstrikes and shadowswords! I do like big formations myself and I tend to like quality. I like decisive strikes vs. multi-turn containment and widdling practices.

I guess I tend to have fewer formations rather than more typically. I'll have to pay more attention to this Cw. Good observation.

You managed to bust the two "main" tough IG fomations (SHT & Tank). If the IG had managed to do the same to your two HH formations could you have managed?

Heh... No. No way. My eggs were very much in the HH and the morays. The rest was support for these three formations. The Stingrays and infantry were very AP oriented and could not hope to deal the same amount of damage. The IG army was very AT heavy - not uncommon in E:A in my area, but his vehicles have a crazy amount of RA as well. The other formations in my army were just not equipped to deal with what he brought.

Bet you were relieved when the DSMs died!

There was much fist pumping and an appropriate amount of gloating following said event... in the name of the greater good of course. :devil:

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clausewitz

Post subject: Got a 4K game in

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:35 am

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Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Quote
Bet you were relieved when the DSMs died!

There was much fist pumping and an appropriate amount of gloating following said event... in the name of the greater good of course.

Hehe, and no doubt mutterings of "what they would have done to those Morays if only..." from the IG command.

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Tactica

Post subject: Got a 4K game in

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:04 am

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Quote (Honda @ 20 Dec. 2005 (07:20))

First off, great report Tac. Very thought provoking.

Thank you. It wasn't meant to be as much of a bat rep as - hey I got a game in, however, it appears to have sparked some good conversation - so I'm not complaining at all!

Wish I'd had some pics and a map or two.. you and Jaldon make me envious.

Thanks for taking the time to respond too!

My thoughts:

1. Lists: In general, I liked the forces you brought to the table and would feel comfortable playing them.

How did you feel about the 8 objective claiming formations? I tend to take less than the norm I suppose. That's with any of my lists because I really like to maximize or at least make good use of airpower be it chaos, IG, or Tau... perhaps that's just the American in me, but I really like the control and the 'trick' factor that airpower delivers. It definitely requires ground units to coordinate and eliminate AA cover from designated hot zones, but its an element of E:A I truly enjoy. I definitely pay a penalty for that enfactuation as I reduce the amount of ground formations. The larger formations as a result seem to yield a bit of staying power and perhaps that's why it all jells in the end. CW's comments did get me thinking. I really think I go against the activation grain a bit regardless of the army I'm fielding... curious on your 'against the grain' feelings on this one. :alien:

I think I would have worked things around to get the Scorpionfish/Dragonfish group in there as I use them a lot and although I'm not a fan of Broadsides, I liked how you used them in your game.

I have to give the credit where it is due. BaronP is who gave me the idea originally (if memory serves). I was pleasently suprised with their performance I'll have to admit. However, had we done this one all over again, I wonder if they would survive their first landing. I'm definitely going to toy with this more. I liked the 'feel' of the broadsides dropping from Orca. It was something that you know is happening in 40K, but you don't really get to see it. Its very interesting and picture-esque in E:A. Besides, its a great opportunity to taunt your opponent. It also serves as a very mobile flanking front. I was encouraged by the results but fear the value if the drones cannot be used to bolster the ranks. Again, more testing of the tactic required.

The IG definitely had a pretty brutal list.
heh, you can say that again! It seemed like he had an answer for every trick I pulled out of the book!

2. Morays: Your Morays always seem to take a lot of grief. However, I've also noticed that it may have to do with the armies you play against. IG in particular, don't have any trouble fielding units that can reach out and touch you in a painful way.

that's probably fair. I really like the morays, no question, but the opponents I play against also like blowing them up. I play against the chaos-BL, SL-IG, Eldar, Orks, and marines (Tau of course, but usually never tau v tau so don't know how that plays out. Also play v the bugs sometimes, but not with the latest versions of either list)

Of the lists I regularly play against with the Tau, Marines are the only list that typically don't shutdown/control or actually eliminate the Morays on the norm.

The observation is definitely worthy note.

That hasn't been been my experience to date, but fun games with IG and Eldar are in my future.
Fun they will be. Challenging even if you have a strong opponent. Both lists can be very tough without just being all in your face assaulting. As a result, I really enjoy playing against both.

Another thing I've noticed is that you tend to play at higher points levels (or at least this is my recollection) which lets the IG player bring everything, including their 3rd cousins. If you were going to set up a series of these games, it might be interesting to see what the game would be like at 2700.

Well, if 2000-5000 is the tourny legal and recommended norm per JJ in the section 6 of the rulebook, I didn't think our 3000 - 4000 point games were actually on the high side. I thought we were typically playing the median of 3500 or +/- 500 point game actually.

I too, have come to the conclusion on the Ion-phalanx vs. the Rail gun. Although I still see a need, I think I value the number of shots that IP provides a little more now than the RC. Some of that has to do with our group not fielding much in the way of war engines/titans just yet, but I do know that that UM player is planning on adding Warhounds (on my recommendation) to give him the punch I think he is looking for. So perhaps after a short while I'll settle on 1 x IP + 1 x RC.
Warhounds do seem to add more toys to the UM list. I'd stay away from the reaver and warlord in that list though. Warhounds will be a welcomed edition to the list. I'd recommend he play them in a pair rather than individually in the ... err.. 'higher' point games though. See NH's comments about see-sawing the damage. 6 hit formation stays unbroken a whole lot longer than a 3 hit formaiton too.

However, at 2700 pts, I don't know that I'm getting the value out of my Morays that I'm expecting, so for the next couple of games, they won't be showing up.
Yeah, in 2700 points, I won't run a pair of them. I think the moray must be fielded with the hero to do what I need it to do, so that would be 750 points for me if I were to bring 2 or at least 450 from aircraft if I was going to bring 1. I think every list needs a formation of fighters, so the barracudas are a must have for me as well... in tau, barracudas come first. In IG, Tbolts first, etc... so I couldn't run the morays in a 2700 point list as per my methodology.

3. Long Range GM: It would have been interesting to see what the Stealth might have accomplished if they had been deployed.
Agreed... "summon Shame" :down:

I don't really know this, but feel that even if they had landed, you may not have had enough GM's close enough to take advantage of their ML. Perhaps in the center, you might, but I'm not thinking that they would have helped you on the corners.
I sure think there could have been something for them to do. the GM's from the bridge of the HH contingent on the right could have used some marks. The morays tracers could have used some marks. Heck, I could have used some marks on the left side against that hydra battery that popped out of cover. Timing was questionable in all of those cases though, so... stealths definitely take some planning due to teleport plus using with another formation.

Would have been interesting to see the Sentry towers used as well.
Agreed... but my buddy 'jim' hasn't made me any yet...

4. Stingrays: I can see why one would upgrade the Stingrays with a Skyray, but for the life of me, I'm not sure I see why adding the Pirannha's adds value. Perhaps it's how I use the unit. Are the Pirannha's used to take out infantry transports (i.e. slow them down?).
I wanted to give the formation some AT punch, just in case my opponent went almost all vehicular on me (IG and eldar definitely can do that very effectively) - and he did. Also, I know the Stingray is a rather brittle formation. They don't take fire well. I was hoping the piranhas could absorb some of that. Finally, it was an upgrade I had never tried on them before and was available to them in the list - so thought I'd try it out.

All in all, I wasn't impressed, but I wasn't dissapointed either I guess. IG have large infantry foramtions, and they can even make them bigger... in this particular case - the mechanized co was 13 infantry and 7 chimera base + 4 infantry + 2 chimera + 1 hydra for a grand total of 17 infantry and 10 tanks or 27 units strong!

I don't know about you guys, but my opponents always butt every infantry stand up to vehicles to get that 'counts as being in cover' vs. your shots. So, I like to take out the vehicles early and slow infantry formations down ASAP! I was also hoping the piranhas would help with that.

Again, mixed bag in this situation.

5. Hammerheads: Lately, I have taken one all RG AMHC and one IC AMHC and task them according to what they do best. Perhaps it is how our relative opponents play, but mixing capabilities in units tends to leave me with unused shots, which I find very annoying. I see you mix capabilities fairly regularly, is that paying out for you?
I like options. I may sacrifice some potency as a result, but I do like options. I also like to maximize the effectiveness of a formation so its very much a balancing act when I build the formations. I find that there's typically more vehicles on the field than infantry in my games. As a result, all lists I run have a skew of AT potential. In addition, there tends to be more than one opportunity to prey on infantry that have recently lost their vehicles and are now in the open and not in cover, I like to 'target things not in cover' plenty of the time. Therefore, getting around that darn -1 to hit penalty. I usually find an LV foramtion or two to prey on as well.

Thus far, mixed formations with skew towards AT damage potential seems to be the way to run in my neck of the woods.

Heck, look at the list I played. Infantry cadre and stingrays both had AP suseptable targets. The broadsides were AP suseptable targets. The majority of my list was definitely AT suseptable though.

6. BM Management: One thing that came to mind while reading the batrep, should ground units proximity (especially puny ones) really affect aerospace units ability to rally? Something to think about.
You're mixing threads aren't you!

Yeah, I know what you are saying. CS's suggested 'radius of influence' or 'command radius' for BM management recently would affect support craft (unless expressly excluded) which would cause more rules. You also have the issue of whether or not they affect alien auxiliarys or drone squadrons... it would take lots of 'special rules' to clarify that bonus. All the more reason I'm not in favor of that suggestion. I think it will cause just as many problems as it will work to solve.

I know we are discussing BM management in another thread, but I wonder if the way we are approaching the problem has a simpler solution.

See the BM Management thread... not the leader thread, the thread I specifically created for BM managment. Go to the page 6 or so and look at the top. I proposed some very simplistic solutions for our problems.

Great report and it will prepare me for the joys of playing against IG as we picked up a new player locally and he already has 5K of IG.
Excellent. Glad you found some value.

Good luck in your upcoming battles. May you find a worthy foe, and learn much of their ways before turn 4.

Cheers,

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