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Everything Markerlights

 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:59 am 
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Just thought I would link this up.  The SG forums are usually dead, and I posted this there hoping to spring some life back into it.  Anyways, instead of copying everything out all over again:
http://www.specialist-games.com/forum/t ... IC_ID=3009

I am not a rock solid on my opinion, but I thought I would throw this out again as we now have a new Champion.  Discussion is always a good thing I think.


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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:13 pm 
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A bit of a bump, as well as a sample post from this forum.  I hope that we can get some more discussion over there, as it has been hinted at many times, that the game Devs only look at the SG boards for development.





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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:18 pm 
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Disclaimer: This converstation never happened, and is being written in the style of comedic farse. There are lots of exagerations in this little story, and I hope you can get a small laugh out of it, while at the same time get in the frame of mind where I am coming from from my main suggestion of abstracting out Seekers, while keeping everything else the same.

Without further adue, "The Tradgedy of the n00b Tau player!"

I am Tau noob from WH40K trying to make a Tau army with an Epic Tau veteran.

me: Ok so I am going to bring these two cardres of firewarriors with devildish to move forward and try and cut down their infantry, and transports.

TauVet: You nub! Firewarriors are for holding objectives, you never attack with them. Better yet, use Human aux to hold objectives, they are even better, but I don't use them cause they're not Tau!!

me: huh?

TauVet: Ok FW's can shoot infantry pretty good, but they will get slaughtered by all the transports in the formation, they can't hurt tanks! Also he will just keep his infantry in his transports, shoot yours with his transports, and dare you to try and assult him if you want to take them out.

me: oh so asaulting with Firewarrios is the only way I can kill transports, but this isn't suppost to be an assaulty army?

TauVet: Thats right, you bring tanks if you want to kill little puny transports/LV's. Well okay, if you still want to follow this dumb idea of using your FW to engage other mobile infantry, then you should just sit back 75cm's away and fire at them with your Devilfish's, then move up and attack him once he has no more vehicles.

me: What?! My transports have a 75cm AV SHOT?!?

TauVet: God you have no idea how Tau work at all do you?

me: well, sorta, in 40k...

TauVet: 40k is not Epic, drop everything you know. Take tanks, and learn how to use Seekers as GM's now.

me: Okay well then I guess I will take some pathfinders to act as forward scouts to mark targets for my Tracers and shoot down hard targets.

TauVet: sigh, you really are a nub. No one uses Pathfinders for that! Use Tetras! They are faster, and able to mark just the same! No one uses pathfinders, except for the 75cm AV attack from the Devilfish, Wooo!!! Oh, and take more tanks.

me: I don't understand this,

TauVet: Thats cause you're stuck on 40K, this is EPIC!

me: Ok so I will move my Tetra's forward to mark the enemy mounted infantry, and then shoot at them with my Hammerhead formation.

TauVet: That's not an efficient use of your force.

me: Oh, so what should do for this move?

TauVet: Well if you shoot your GM's from your Hammerheads, then they can't shoot that enemy tank squad over there, as having GM's shot by the tank uses up its activation, and it must target the same unit it's seekers are shooting at. Just bring MORE tanks like stingrays, or bring Crisis suits. Firewarriors are for holding objectives!

Me: Huh, I thought seekers had nothing to do with the tanks. I thought that Seekers automatically smart fire once guided by the infantry's markerlights. The tanks are nothing more than carriers for them, thus the tanks could be free to go after the Heavy stuff with the enemy. In 40K.....

TauVet: Stop saying in 40K! In Epic, the tanks shoot the Gm's!

me: I know, and I really like the GM rules, Tracers and Hunters are cool and fluffy! But it seams wierd that the seekers are using the GM rules for these newer and more powerful guided munitions.

TauVet: Well Seekers were made GM's, I mean where do all those missile come from if they are not shown as a stat on all vehicles in the game? You can't abstract stuff like that for small things in EPIC! Anyways, this means that if they waste their time launching seekers at your dumb infantry target, thats not holding an objective *poke* *poke*, they can't do their job hunting tanks!

me: Right I get it, Firewarriors are for holding objects, but can't abstract stuff like that? Isn't that really just a choice of whether we want to or not? I mean all units are considered to have enough ammo for their basic weapons to last the whole battle, right?

TauVet: Maybe, but in 40K they are on the tanks, and you have to keep track of each one, so how could you shoot seekers if you had no tanks in your army? Huh, answer me that?

me: Well they could be carried by small drones, launched from off field, or maybe in small camoflaged racks that are setup with battle, or from some non combat aircraft or.... Hey, wait a minute, didn't you just tell my that this is Epic and not 40K and tha.....

TauVet: You really don't understand Epic.

TauVet: Look this is how you play. All your FW sit on thier buts once they get to an objectve. Take lots and lots of tanks, and use these other markerlights as mobile LOS bubbles. Until the enemy's warengines are taken out, hide all your vehicles at the back of the board behind cover, and launch GM's!!

me: but shouldn't they be up close supporting my infantry advance, you know combined arms and all?

TauVet: They don't have to be! You can hide them at the back, cause every tank in the army has all these neeto seeker thingy's that are GM's! Just make sure that they are within 45cm of your makerlight units, so that they can shoot from 75cm away all their little seekers missiles!

me: You're right I don't understand Tau in Epic.






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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:06 am 
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The statement that if you can, you bring more armor is not valid IMHO. AS you are supposed NOT to know the Enemy you will be facing, you should take an army that can deal a variable amount of threats equally. And the Tau tanks can?t deal with all. Due to the "high" Points cost you will lack any cheap activations to retain the Activation Curve for long. Although I tried the all Skimmer Army and it did work against Tyranids, with no losses taken by enemy action. Similar to the Saim Hann Army they are very mobile but restricted in overall effectiveness, at least in a terrain hard crowded table. And with the new rule that you can?t pop-up while sustaining , it will force you to move, at least not gaing +1 from Sustained Fire.

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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:59 pm 
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Well ... in both cases ... it may be techniques ... that may work for different players, with different styles.  I try to never get locked into a certain predictable method, however, do what works ! :D

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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:15 pm 
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Seeing as its everything markerlights, is there any consideration of the fact that crisis suits will be able to take marker drones in the new codex?
Combined with the fact that gun drones are going to be uncommon because of shield drones being the only protective ones (and damn good ones too, just being extra wounds with a 4+ inv at the suits T and Armour) and the improvements to markerlights in general of improving an entire squad rather than one weapon, we're probably going to see load outs of 3 suits, 3 sheild drones and 3 marker drones (or 4 and 2) - not only improving the suits BS (though I think this needn't change) but also giving the option for seekers to complement the suits own AT fire.


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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:16 pm 
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And with the new rule that you can?t pop-up while sustaining , it will force you to move, at least not gaing +1 from Sustained Fire.


Has this been confirmed? I had heard rumors both ways (you can or you cannot pop-up).

Thanx!

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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:20 pm 
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Quote (Honda @ 29 Nov. 2005 (14:16))

And with the new rule that you can?t pop-up while sustaining , it will force you to move, at least not gaing +1 from Sustained Fire.


Has this been confirmed? I had heard rumors both ways (you can or you cannot pop-up).

Thanx!

At least GJLane posted it at the SG Forums. Though still beeing experimental until next Year I suppose.
Here?s the Link:
http://www.specialist-games.com/forum/t ... IC_ID=2887

Cheers!
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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:23 pm 
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Honda,

Its the latest 'experimental rule' by GJLane.

Its been unofficially that way for some time, he just put it into writing - now its officially experimental, but still unofficial per the book.

Those are however the only two versions of the rule on the table at this time.

Cheers,

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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:08 pm 
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Markerlights are going to be a pain no matter what happens I think.  They just do too many things, to please everyone.  I think that the mechanic we have now works, so if nothing changes I won't cry bloody murder or anything, but I do think that it could be 'tweaked' slightly to feel more fluffy.

The serious proposition was to keep all GM rules untouched.  The only thing that would change would be to remove seekers as both a GM, and as induvidual weapon.  Instead they would be placed in the Notes section of units with markerlights saying "Note: Count the number of markerlight units in the formation and devide by 2 (rouding up).  You may make this number AV6+ @30cm attacks in addition to other fire."

Pathfinders notes would differ slightly: "Note: You may make 1xAV5+ @ 30cm attack for each pathfinder stand in the formation, in addition to other fire."

The GM mechanic is great, and feel very fluffy.... For Tracers, Hunters, and any other specialized and rarer GM's.  Seekers feel very alien using the current rules with vehicles firing them.

This might help explain the skit above for those of you who didn't check out the original thread on SG boards.

However, when the new Tau codex comes out, I am sure that once again the Markerlight mechanic will not fit again.






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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:54 pm 
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Well we do know the new markerlight rules,
each shot gets you the option of
- increase squads BS by 1
- fire a seeker missile
- add a -1 modifier to a pinning check
- reduce cover saves by 1

Markerlights can not mark for other markerlights, nor can they mark for the squad firing them, networked markerlights (found on the skyray and marker drones mainly) are an exception to this last rule and can mark for the unit that fired them.

Of these, points 1&3 I would assume are still reflected in the statline of firewarriors. Point 2 is up for debate (though I like the way it goes now - its not entirely accurate but I think the markers should be seperated from the missiles to keep the right feel) but reflected to some degree or another.
And we will get lynched if firewarriors/pathfinders get ignore cover with point 4.

However 40Kwise I think with the boost to markerlights, the marker drone is going to become pretty common (seeing as the drone controller can be hardwired unlike the targetting array which needs a hard point) and it would be unusual for Crisis suits not to be accompanied by sheild and marker drones. Hence the suggestion

I have two possible ideas -
Do we assume that these guys always use them to boost their own firepower and don't call in seekers, or do so if they miss with their missile pods etc so the firepower stays the same

Or make Seekers and GMs require marker locks, but have pretty much everything either with a seeker, or a markerlight. Gun drone squadrons and kroot being the only (40K) exceptions?






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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:00 am 
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RedDevil,

I'm sorry, but I'm very confused by the overall premis or goal of your topic.

Every time I read your chain of posts on this topic, your point seems to filter down to:

1 - I want the FW to have an AT shot.
2 - I want the marker light to work more like it does in 40K

Is that correct?

I really don't understand what problem you identified with the Markerlight as keeping it as it currently is listed in the E:A Tau list.

I would agree with you that a marker light in the current 40K codex is completely different. I would also agree that the Markerlight in the new 40K codex will even be more different.

Neither concepts align with E:A Tau - that's true.

Cheers,





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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:48 am 
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Tactica: before I answer your question, I want to make it completely clear that I like the current GM mechanic!  Everytime I bring up the point, I get this wierd kneejerk reaction from the masses that I am changing the whole GM mechanic, and it is completely false.  I like the GM mechanic, I just don't think that the Seeker belongs in those rules, "feel" wise.

Tactica: #2 all the way, But only in regards to the SEEKER, not any other GM, current or future.

The result would be that, yes, Firewarriors would get an AT attack.    But how people can think that this makes the Firewarrior more powerful, and need less support is beyond me.

1 Firewarrior cadre with Devilfish
Currently: 4xAT6+, or AT5+ (marked), or AT4+(M+sustained) no LOS attacks at 75cm!  Go back up to my skitt to see how rediculous this is from any point of view if you understand Tau.  Besides the fact that all the development lists are pretty much only followed by the fans of that army, I really don't understand why people haven't raised their eyebrows at this.  Why are the transports sporting 75cm AT4+ attacks no matter what the conditions are to achieve AT4+???

Proposed change:  You get 4xAT6+, or AT5+ (sustained) attacks at 30cm. LOS needed.

I think if anyone here is going to say that this is some huge boost in power to the firewarrior, they're smoking something.  Same goes for those who think that you won't need to support your firewarriors with tanks; your smoking something.  You need to support them more, as they're not just sitting in cover, sniping away with the transports 75cm AT attack! (absurd).  This is a nurf, not some huge superboost to Firewarriors, but "feels" more true to the Tau of 40K, and in no way "breaks" the Epic Tau IMO.

Further I predict that people will cry that I am taking away from the character of the Tau by scrapping all the GM rules (false: only seekers affected), or by removing more than 1/2 of the GM's from the list (also false).  To this, I would reply that this only seams true because the current Tau list is totally spammed with seekers on everything that has a hull and engine to begin with. They are not being removed, but just being slightly nurfed and shuffled onto different stands to portray them in a more fluffy way.  This removal not only makes the weapon lists for vehicles far less crowded by not having "Seekers" repeated over and over on so many profiles (it will just be a component of markerlight rules), but by removing the seeker, I think, this will allow us to slightly increase the population of the new GM's such as the Tracer.  For instance (just an example so please don't refute the whole idea on the basis of this one example), wouldn't the Skyray actually be considered as decent upgrade if it had:
-1xTracer;
-1xHunter?
-Note: Skimmer, Markerlight, etc...
Now you have a reason to take these over the Ion-Cannon Hammerhead that seams to justify spending an extra 75pts.  One is no longer a weaker and more inferrior counterpart to the other, they now have similar but different uses.  I doubt you will hear much complaint about this as well since there are no longer seekers on all the Hammerheads (which may calm down those who are already clammoring to nurf the Hammerhead or increase it's cost.)  This is just an example of what this overall nurf would allows us to do to make units "work" again.

Other benefits would be:
-Breath life into stealths.  With a modest 3xAT6+ @30cm attacks they can actually teleport to artillary and lay more than a single blastmarker down.
-Make people not only choose Pathfinders for markerlights, but actualy make you want to move them up and get closer to the enemy (as is there purpose as described by the fluff) to take a couple AV attacks as well as ML for GM's, rather that always take Tetra's cause a ML is a ML and Tetra's are better.
-Remove this feeling that infantry are nothing more than LOS bubbles for the tanks, and are useless except to hold objectives.
-Remove this rediculous situation where our transports have these outragous 75cm, no LOS, AV attacks.
-Actually have infantry and tanks "combine" arms, rather then have one (the infantry) strictly there for the benefit of the other (the tank) as a LOS bubble.
-Using the nurf to balance Crisis as Infantry to those who are worried about the list already potentially being overpowered.

But all that aside, and just looking only at how this would change the Seeker feel, if you still think that under the current system seekers are behaving more like how they are actually used in the only official list in the GameWorkshop franchise (40K: Tau), then you (those who feel the current seeker is more true to the feel) cannot be convinced and I will stop wasting your time.






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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:33 am 
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RedDevil, if I may rephrase:

You're saying that what you want to see is the Fire Warriors, in effect, be the ones calling down the Seeker Missiles, not that they're *carrying* them, even though it would be listed in their stats as opposed to a stat for various tanks.

In essense, the Seekers could be coming from anywhere and the Fire Warriors are guiding them to target with their Markerlights (30cm), so it makes sense to give the FW unit the attack.

Is this correct?  If so, I totally get what you're saying and I think I dig it.  *laugh*

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 Post subject: Everything Markerlights
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:05 am 
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Ummm ... may be it's just me ... but it seems that this is getting a lot more complicated then needed, IMO ?  ??? :;):

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