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CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5464 |
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Author: | Tactica [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:51 pm ] |
Post subject: | CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments |
CS, You made this comment in the ork batrep thread: I would rather make subtle changes to encourage players to take mixed forces (if this is actually what we want to do). For example, if we simply limited the number of vehicles which had Markerlights (and in particular remove them from the Hammerheads) then it would encourage more Fire Warriors without restricting the players choice. |
Author: | Nerroth [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments |
I had assumed that the Stingray didn't have markerlights anyway - it's intended to launch long-range strikes from beyond visual range (I usually hide a formation behind a hill or whatever near my home objective, and use my Tetras-plus-Piranhas formation as the markers of enemy formations) It's in character with the unit, plus sice it'll be hidden usually it's unnecessary. Gary |
Author: | CyberShadow [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments |
Thanks for pulling this out. My statement was more of a blanket one, rather than aimed specifically at a vehicle. As I see it, the issue that occurs in a number of threads is that the Tau tanks are very good, particularly compared to the infantry, and that this may see a reduction in infantry taken in the list. I think that this would be a shame. I think that cutting back on the number of vehicles with markerlights would act as a balance to this and encourage mixed forces without imposing restrictions on the player (as the vehicles would benefit from better tragetting and the infantry would actually have access to heavier firepower). This would also address an issue which was raised about how the seeker missiles should be acting to help out the infantry by dealing with heavier targets, rather than the infantry helping out the vehicles by acting as scouts and marking targets. A subtle distinction, sure. Removing the markerlights was something that I mentioned regarding the Skyray, for the same reasons that you raise about the Stingray. Conversly, I would not remove it from the Tetra, as this is one of the common (and in character) roles for the vehicle. |
Author: | Tastyfish [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:31 pm ] |
Post subject: | CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments |
I'd reccomend looking at the Everything Markerlight thread's recent idea, there was quite a good markerlight/seeker idea there that would encourage a much more balanced force of infantry and tanks Its spelled out better there but essentially, a markerlight equiped unit can add the seeker missiles from another formation (or from itself, not both) to its own firepower. Though this is a one for one basis - one markerlight unit calling in seekers from one seeker equiped unit. |
Author: | Nerroth [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:32 pm ] |
Post subject: | CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments |
I'd keep the ML on the Skyray - to match the model - but I hit on the idea of only having the +1 to hit from Pathfinders and Tetras, so all the Skyray could do by itself is mark a target, granting no to hit bonus. Fair? Gary |
Author: | Honda [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments |
I am not in favor of removing the ML's from the Stingray or Scorpionfish. In fact I might go so far as to say that I am strongly not in favor of removing them. Now, I'm not just saying that because I am a heavy user of both vehicles, but because you are taking away a self-defense mechanism for each formation. The ML allows each of those units to defend themselves when that all too nasty CC unit starts getting too close, by pouring in fire to reduce what is most likely going to be an unfavorable exchange from the Tau perspective. If you force these two units to be so dependent on other units ML's, then you are building a weakness into the army, in that if an opponent can just get past the front line (which isn't that hard to do in this game), then the rest of the forces can be easily dealt with. I don't know how other people use these vehicles, but my standard method of operations is to use them to support other attacks, in defilade to protect them, flitting back and forth to lend fire where needed. I am already paying for the risk of exposing FW's to an opponent's troops to gain the benefit of ML's. However, it isn't that uncommon for someone to figure out that if they can just get a unit within range to engage, then they have a pretty good chance of destroying, driving them off, or placing blast markers on that which annoys them. What softens up this strike back is the ability to hit the unit with a somewhat enhanced chance of doing damage in a self-defense action. Note, this means not firing at what I'd really rather fire at, because now I am trying to save/extricate the unit. Also, removing the ML's from these two units is not going to cause people to suddenly start buying more FW's. What they may end up doing is just buying more HH formations (i.e. unintended consequence). Taking ML's away doesn't make FW's more attractive, it only degrades two formations that are working pretty well. JMO. Also, I would like those who have an opinion on the subject to please define what they mean by "infantry". Are they talking about foot infantry or mechanized infantry. The reason I ask is that it almost sounds like there is a desire to move the list back to "Dark Ages" tactics where everybody marshals their forces in long lines and then have a go at each other. That is not the model of modern warfare, which on a certain level, we are attempting to emulate. There is a reason why, excepting specialist units (i.e. SPECOPS, Lt. Infantry, etc.) that modern armies have evolved into the mechanized monsters that they are. Mechanized forces are more capable of waging war than foot borne infantry forces. And if you want to bring up Vietnam or Afghanistan (the Russian version), just substitute Airmobile for Mechanized and you come to the same result. Mobility and firepower are king. So, if you want people to take more infantry, then make infantry more attractive, don't make other units less attractive. Also keep in mind that some people are attracted to this list because it is (in it's current form) a tanker's dream. Don't penalize people because that is why they are attracted to the list. Sorry if there is a little emotion in my comments, but this list has so much potential...it would be a shame to start shackling parts of it. /* SOAPBOX OFF ![]() |
Author: | Nerroth [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments |
Honda, what do you think of my idea for keeping the Markerlight on the Skyray, but only letting Pathfinders and Tetras grant the +1 to hit? Gary |
Author: | Tastyfish [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:23 pm ] |
Post subject: | CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments |
Tanks I say = MBTs and the like, Hammerheads, Leman Russ etc Infantry = infantry, including their transports who in our case don't do a lot of traditional tank roles. I think most people here would tend to agree, rather than counting devilfish as 'tanks' given that they only appear with infantry. IG I see as the tankers dream armour, Tau is the Mechanised/Airborn infantry. We've only just got a tank cadre in the last few weeks, and wouldn't say its as typically Tau as the mech infantry, which is pretty much how every 40K player plays (or hybrid but we'll pretend its mech for the time being:p). Surely people play Tau in epic more for the models and threat of drowning in money if they don't? As for Stingrays and Scorpionfish, can't say I've used them (though I've ordered a detachment of the former) but from a the Fio point of view - Skyrays have been a sucess, such a sucess that they are being incorperated into more cadres in a much wider role than just AA. It seems to be going back a step to remove an ability from that on designs inspired by the Skyray, just because your ethos is combined arms doesn't mean you can't throw out a punch on your own if things turn against you. |
Author: | Lion in the Stars [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments |
The fluff from IA3 has Skyrays getting pulled from the air-defense role to extra-long range AT fire support in the desert. There'd be some hidden Pathfinders to mark an IG convoy, and the first indication that there was anyone out there was when the Seekers hit. Then the Hammerheads would crest a hill line, into range, and blast the remaining members of the convoy. As soon as the IG started to get shells on/close to target, the Tau would break away. The only way the Imperials could really counter this tactic was to shift Basilisks to be 'assault guns', ie, ad-hoc tanks firing directly. The Stingray had markerlights mostly because the Skyray did, but I still think that the Stingray should retain them. It allows for the unit to select it's own targets, at close range (remembering how the ML/GM combo works in fluff), and the weapons are tied into the wider markerlight network, allowing others to call for fire from the Stingray, as well as to come to the aid of the Stingray if/when someone gets in position to threaten it. Given FW's like to add markerlights to the newer heavy fliers, I'm starting to think that the Scorpionfish should also have them. |
Author: | Tactica [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:55 pm ] | ||
Post subject: | CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments | ||
Thanks for pulling this out. |
Author: | Dobbsy [ Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:25 am ] |
Post subject: | CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments |
Well from my perspective, the infantry in a Tau army are there to deal with infantry. Sure they don't like assault but they more than make up for it in the AP stakes. So when they are faced with armour they call in their own to deal with it and combined arms is utilised. IMHO I think our list reflects this and we don't need a change. I will still take FWs because they have markerlights and shoot up infantry - I won't drop them because our tanks are better. I also look at it from a RL and fluff POV - you can't win battles without infantry to take and hold ground. |
Author: | Tastyfish [ Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:38 am ] |
Post subject: | CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments |
However this is a tournament list, it will be abused and stretched to breaking point, some of the IG forces I've seen posted as tourament ones are obscene (mech supreme command, tank company, ton of shadowswords, roughriders and ogryns) from a fluff or RL point of view. Choices do need to be competitive (that said, I don't really see the seeker issue that much and have yet to fight truly horrible all tank armies so still find FW useful) |
Author: | Honda [ Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:54 am ] |
Post subject: | CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments |
Dobbsy said: Well from my perspective, the infantry in a Tau army are there to deal with infantry. Sure they don't like assault but they more than make up for it in the AP stakes. So when they are faced with armour they call in their own to deal with it and combined arms is utilised. IMHO I think our list reflects this and we don't need a change. I will still take FWs because they have markerlights and shoot up infantry - I won't drop them because our tanks are better. I also look at it from a RL and fluff POV - you can't win battles without infantry to take and hold ground. |
Author: | Tactica [ Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:08 am ] |
Post subject: | CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments |
dobbsy and honda, I see no problem in the logic and although I wouldn't be kissing anyone... (scracths head ![]() ... I think your point is well made and can't argue. Well stated. I am reluctant to see any marker lights wash from the unitst that currently have them. I do encourage infantry use. I don't think a tourny can be won without the infantry, and I think the list does accurately reflect that the Tau put a lot of faith in their tech, not themselves. That to me works quite well with the way I see the tau play overall. As long as the vehicle units are not dumbed down in our list, I'm perfectly happy with the infantry staying as we've defined it in the Tau WIP v4.2.8 list. Frankly, I think that list is working rather nicely thus far... (even with the broadsides as LV) BTW: ran through a test scenerio (I controlled both sides last night in the test scenerio) and the tau were able to keep one of two broadside formations alive without tip-toeing with the formation too much. Both formations had drones to suppor them though and that buffer helped a bit. But that's a seperate topic. Cheers, |
Author: | Tactica [ Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:16 am ] | ||
Post subject: | CS's Vehicle Markerlight removal comments | ||
Tasty, An all IG vehicle army - or heavily skewed one as you detailed - is completely different to an all Tau vehicle or heavily vehicle skewed Tau army. 1) the IG get a lot of RA on MBT plus SHT, tau don't 2) the IG FF is better than the Tau 3) the limited IG infantry you did mention (roughriders & Ogryns) fight in combat very well and can make up for thin infantry when things get tight - tau don't have that either. So I feel your concerns about all armored armies may be slightly skewed by your IG experiences. I've played Eldar armies that are quite gross and seriously skewed to majority if not all vehicles... Tau have nothing on them either when it comes to all vehicle armies. I think it will be far and few significantly sized E:A tourny's (if ever) where you see an all vehicle tau army pull off the sweeping victory. We just don't have the special rules (Eldar) or staying power (IG) or combat potential (both) to do what other armies do when they take mostly if not all vehicle armies. I do think we'll be able to go heavy tech with limited firewarriors and percevere though if that's the desired tactic. It will have to be well orchestrated, but I think things like the WIP stealth and infantry crisis along with possibly pathfinders/or tetras and maybe broadsides will have to be mixed in to varying degrees for success. An all FW army with heavy GM's has possibilities, but it will be no means be the only winning combination, nor should that level of infantry be required for viability IMHO. So, I think that's quite a good thing. Cheers, |
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