Tactical Command
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

Powegaming
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5461		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  RedDevil [ Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Powegaming
This list is brutal, and shows what I mean by Seeker Spamming.

2x armoured all ion 750
1x crisis + 'O 350
4x Piranha 600
  2x +Tetra  150
1x Stealths 275
1x drone +heavey 125
1x Tigershark Transport 150
1x Moray  300

2700pts

-Two Piranha formations had Tetra's as upgrades.  
-All Piranha formations would sit in the back and hide behind cover.
-Stealths would teleport to mark targets, or Heavy drones would be dropped by Tigershark, or a Piranha + Tetra formation would zip up and mark.  Marking was no problem.
-Tau player would then retain, and Co-ordinate fire 3x Piranha units to sustain on marked target.  18xAT4+ @75cm no LOS hits would wipe-out or insta-break units.
-Next would activate the other Piranha, and Co-ordinate fire with the two Armour cadres (who are also hiding).  Another 18xAT4+ no LOS shots would wipe-out or insta-break another formation.

-36xAT4+ @75cm no LOS shots on turn one, with plenty of other weapon systems to still add more carnage.

-End result?  Totally cheesy play.  Opposing army AV and warengines got totally mauled in two turns of this tactic. The Piranha's would just zip out from cover and capture/contest any objectives last turn.
-Tanks, and crisis would harass infantry.  If any threat got close to the pirahna's they would just zip away.
-Enemy Aircraft faced 6-12 Flack shots from Ion's
-Moray had free reign.
-Tigershark had free reign.

The Seeker/ML (not GM/ML) mechanic really needs to be looked at.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:36 am ]
Post subject:  Powegaming
Wow! Never looked at it from that perspective before. 7 vehicle types with seekers. What adjustments do you suggest Red?

edit - ok just finished reading the loooooooong post in the other thread (which I hadn't even perused until now) so ignore this question.

Re-reading your list here and comments I think a heavily infantry-based army would not have too much of a prob with it as there wouldn't be much those seekers would be firing at which would be a big waste of points.
Author:  Tactica [ Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:18 am ]
Post subject:  Powegaming
RedDevil,

Hmm...

*Seems* like the enemy on any kind of quality overwatch completely wrecks the one-trick-pony attempts of this list.

So *might* an all vehicle army.

So *might* a teleporting termy/rapid strike chaos army with daemons

I could go on, but I won't...



Sure, you attempt to skew your list, you are going to be effective against some things... you are going to be super effective against other things...

However, I'd personally play IG, choas, and eldar against this list of yours all day long.

I may be wrong, but I feel pretty confident that you wouldn't think your seeker list was all that cheesy when we were done.

:devil:  :alien:  :p

I see no problem with the list you built.
Author:  RedDevil [ Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:02 am ]
Post subject:  Powegaming
Umm I think that this army actually works best against an all vehicle list.  The Seekers under GM's are worse than "popping up".  Your sacrifice unit only has to last long enough to mark for one Co-ordinated fire round, then 18 AT4+ shots streak in wipe out an enemy unit.  You can then retain and send another 18 AT4+ shots.  Teleporting termies might be able to assault one or two of Pirahna formations, though if they don't win initiative, they will be totally wiped out by tha AP4+ shots of the Piranha's , plus the Ionheads.  The whole Tau army is hiding behind cover supporting each other.

It's always a losing game for the opponent.  You can sacrifice a 125pt Heavy drone squad, to wipe out an entire armoured company.  Fair trade.  You can retaliate by sending in 650pts of Terminators to destroy two Piranha sqauds worth 300pts.  Fair trade.  You are also ignoring the Moray the whole time you are chasing 150pt Piranha formations. Fair trade.

You may not see anything wrong with this, but I bet you that will not be the case if you show up at a tournament with this.

600pts for 24xAT4+ @75cm no LOS shots.  If you gave the Manta 24 AT4+ shots, people would be screaming bloody murder.
Author:  RedDevil [ Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:09 am ]
Post subject:  Powegaming
Dobbsy:  Check out the AP potential of this list.  Infantry are not vulnerable to the AT attacks, but their transports are.  Not much you can do against a faster force with longer range AP fire.  The Moray is also no slouch at mopping up infantry while staying back out of range.

We could prevent this sort of power gaming by removing the Seeker from the Piranha and Devilfish.

There are other solutions as well... I have no control over what happens in the end though.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Powegaming
Of course the Moray is a target for anyone with a slingshot and spitwad on the field of battle too... :D

And remember, an IG Russ armoured coy gets RA vs all those 4+ shots. So doing the maths you only get:

18x chances of 4+ hits.

Odds say 50% miss so it becomes 9x 4+ hits

Then your opponent gets 4+ saves from the Russes = another 50% chance knocking your possible kills down to 4.5 (let's say 4 for sake of ease)

Once you get down to that your opponent also gets 4 rerolls of 4+ which cuts your actual kills to 2 which would suppress 3 units ina 9+ formation.

And that's if all your formations sustain fire and don't have to move.... (I wouldn't be keen on having to move into a position where the return fire would break my formation. It wouldn't all be plain sailing to execute this attack you're mentioning - you may not be able to pile that many HH's into one area for instance without creating a massive artillery target).

Your attack theory doesn't look so great for all that firepower now. It's an awful lot of points and activations spent trying to knock out a Russ Coy, eh?

Of course this is all based on IG Russ Coy not ork or Eldar vehicles but it does show some balance
Author:  clausewitz [ Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Powegaming
I've tried a list similar to that against IG (the battle report is on this site).  The Piranhas and CF attack can work, but at the cost of activations.  Yes it managed to break a Tank Company, but the IG then had the activation edge which allowed units like Rough Riders and the Reg HQ to march into good assault positions.  The Tau ended up loosing the game.

And Dobbsy is correct its very hard to hide all those Piranhas and Hammerheads without creating good artillery targets.  And a sensible opponent will see the alpha strike potential and place his first activation on over-watch.
Author:  Tactica [ Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Powegaming
Dobbsy and Clauswitz,




RedDevil,

I'd encourage you to find a really good tau player in your area, then give your list a go against him... (too bad you don't live in Missouri)  :devil:

I think you'd find that there are several other factors beyond what you've considered in theory.

Unfortunately, work duties are starting to get ramped up already this morning, so I can't go in length, but many on this thread are already starting to wiegh in... lots of good insight there.

Just keep an open mind my friend,

Anyway - got to run,

Cheers,
Author:  RedDevil [ Sat Dec 03, 2005 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Powegaming
Those are good points.  The list is 11 activations, if you CF you lose 2, so you would still habe 8 left over.  All theorycraft aside, no one here has a problem with 600pts of units throwing out 24 Seeker shots?  It's not one unit either.  It's not a BTS goal, it's split into 4, you can have each formation break separatly, you can sacrifce one to assault and only lose 150pts.  They also spit out 6AP4+ shots each formation, and move 35cm, so it's not like they're helpless against a gathering assault.  There are still two armoured Cadres that can do their own thing, or combine fire with the Piranha's, the Moray, stealths, crisis, and Tigershark.

The no LOS is one of the larger issues.  OW, does not bother me at all.  He can put his whole army on overwatch for all I care, less units moving to objectives.  Last turn you can zip out with all your vehicles, and 35cm LV's to contest everthing.  You'll beat him in the Tiebreaker as long as you keep sacrificing your cheap units.

Obviously I am exagerating the response to OW, but the point of a good General goes both ways.  If he puts a unit of overwatch as a counter, a good General will notice that and attack elsewhere.
Author:  clausewitz [ Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Powegaming
600pts of units throwing out 24 Seeker shots

24 AT6+ Shots (5+ if markerlights available) and 24 AP4+.
IG Tank Company 650 points for 10 AT 4+, 10 AT 5+ and 20 AP 5+. (not including vanquisher)

Rather similar, as long as you use the markerlights.  The big difference is that the tanks are AV with RA4+, while the Piranhas are LV 5+.
Author:  Tactica [ Sat Dec 03, 2005 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Powegaming
And they don't require to have ML to get those numbers.

There are similar 600 point comparisons that you can make in other lists.
Author:  RedDevil [ Sat Dec 03, 2005 10:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Powegaming
The big difference is no LOS.  We're using Piranha's as artillary.
Author:  clausewitz [ Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Powegaming
No LOS... So long as you have markerlights in place.  A key factor which nicely encourages combined arms approach. And also your opponent can learn how to limit/stop your GM fire.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:48 am ]
Post subject:  Powegaming
Quote (RedDevil @ 03 Dec. 2005 (21:53))
The big difference is no LOS. ?We're using Piranha's as artillary.

Yes, well let's not forget that we don't get artillery Red', and that artillery can blanket numerous units at once to achieve a similar effect from a greater distance too. It's just a different mechanic for the Tau to attempt to achieve similar effects
Author:  Jaldon [ Sun Dec 04, 2005 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Powegaming
Red, can you name what artillery the Tau have that is comparable, directly, to something like a Manticore? (None)

The 'enemy' artillery needs no LOS, needs no spotters, can double it's base range, and gets a +1 sustained fire bonus.

Tau Psuedo-Artillery needs spotters, cannot double it's range, and doesn't always get a +1 sustained fire bonus.

I am not complaining mind you, it is just not as powerful, nor comparable to other armies artillery.

Jaldon :p
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/