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Tau lander?

 Post subject: Tau lander?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:17 pm 
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The real problem here is that if the Tau want to deploy reasonably sized armoured formations they either have to use multiple Mantas ( or one Manta making the round trip twice whilst the first-drop waits - not good on a contested planet! ), or go all of the way up to a starship sized transport capable of hauling scores of the things.

Of course, this is based on knowledge of existing craft. My bet is that there's a dropship available to the Tau that can carry upwards of 10 armoured vehicles - we just haven't seen it yet. It also really doesn't seem right to me that the Tau would use Mantas for dropping troops and equipment into LZs that weren't hot - its just a waste of their combat abilities in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Tau lander?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:26 pm 
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Which is where the idea of a modified Manta (bulkier perhaps) capable of carrying 12 AVs and 2-3 WEs but no Railcannons or Ion Phalanxes, comes in.

We can still use the model of the Manta we have - simply remove the heavy weapons - and use it to represent the larger lander (A Moray is probably a bit bigger than the Protector model would show, but it's close enough!)

In terms of WEs, if we can assume that Narwhals and Dragonets can drop from orbit themselves, then the room for 2-3 Baneblades still helps the Gue'senshi (not least because you could also fit a Russ company, or 4 Valks + 4 Vultures + 4 Stingrays - or 4 Chimerae - or 4 more Valks!)


But does my ides for the variant Moray (6 Tetras + 4 Piranhas in pance of the heavy weapon loads) sound reasonable, assuming the thing would be a bit bigger than the Protector model?


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 Post subject: Tau lander?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:29 pm 
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Going to clear up this tanks dropping from orbit - they don't because all ships, even the 5 mile Imperial ones can enter atmosphere without crashing. However as said before - they are very big and don't fight very well compared to when they are in space.
However if no one is shooting you then nothing will stop a ship coming quite low (like the Kroot first contact picture) and letting its grav craft of all kind leaving.

There really is no difference between jumping out of a plane at very high altitudes and normal ones with regard to what a grav chute will do, they are still in atmosphere and are going to be travelling at a much more sensible speed than a shuttle or module that has left orbit.

In BFG, all escorts can land anyway if they have to.


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 Post subject: Tau lander?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:35 pm 
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But are they not Orcas and Mantas - which are able to hover above the surface and pop out their troops and vehicles - in that Kroot first contact picture anyway? (unless that's the point of what you're stating)

As I say, that's what we have with Planetfall, the only troops which should be able to be dropped from higher in the atmosphere are the jet pack troops (Crisis and Stealth), one could see HALOing a trooper, but not a tank!


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 Post subject: Tau lander?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:51 pm 
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True they are orcas and mantas - I was mainly thinking of the large ship in the background (that can really only be seen on the wallpaper on the GW site). Essentially those orcas and mantas have come out of a starship flying really low, its just Orcas and Mantas are a lot more impressive to simply townsfolk than a devilfish.

Just wish the Ordo Xenos guys on Taros had taken note of the maximum altitude things can fly at.


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 Post subject: Tau lander?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:58 pm 
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Hmm, that wallpaper isn't there anymore (and I don't have it stored on the new pc...)


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 Post subject: Tau lander?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:11 am 
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Gah! Why doesn't 40K have the samples of artwork like WFB has!
Still might be able to see it in the top left hand corner of that picture in the codex- isn't recognisable as a specific Tau ship though, just a large smooth almost eldarish engine.

But regardless, still seems easiest to say that the superheavies and grav tanks can leave the ships directly but because they are so much slower than Mantas and Orcas they generally don't except, especially as the Tau ships are going to go no where near the front lines. Hovering over a space port I could see all manner of shuttles and things heading to and fro from the massive starships, or a cadre drifting slowly down from one when on parade. Far as epic goes they don't though - too slow so get picked off by flak, even if the ship was that close.

Unless of course there are specially configured Mantas or Morays with marine landing craft style cradles beneath them. Or..even better the Superheavies arn't actually built on an Orca chassis and would fit in the hold of a Manta anyway.
:;):


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 Post subject: Tau lander?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:03 am 
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The more I consider it, the less I like the clamps idea - it still doesn't deal with the heat shield issue (which prevents the HHs et al from dropping directly from orbit)

The Tau Superheavies are likely based on the Orca hull so they can be dropped from orbit directly.

Sadly, my Gue'senshi need another solution for those Baneblades...

Hence, the Manta conversion.


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 Post subject: Tau lander?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:20 am 
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But Scorpionfish and Dragonfish don't planetfall! Its why we're having this conversation...or do we put it down to a Tau design concept that never worked out (unable to heat shield the comms equipment or missile pods enough)?

I just don't like the idea that sticking enough guns onto a plane, makes it so heavy it works like a hovercraft... that and I want a nice, new, shiny vehicle from FW ;)
Course the current Orca chassis test Scorpionfish could still be hanging around some cadres, waiting to be replaced with the new completely redisigned Narwhals. I can dream.

Aren't railgun Morays the solution to Baneblades?






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 Post subject: Tau lander?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:30 am 
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What I'm saying is that we could say that Planetfall counts for units which are dropped from orbit into combat - we could just say that Narwhals and Dragonets only show up in secure LZs, so the Planetfall rule is not shown in the Epic stats!

Yes, the Gue'senshi can take Morays - but they are very limited in taking Narwhals, which is why they have a limited number of Baneblades they can take (see the link in my sig)


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 Post subject: Tau lander?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:05 am 
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I think it can 'partly' be seen that we have these situations:

- Sudden combat drops(typically Mantas/Orcas), can go from 'orbit' to ground, fully armoured and resistant.
- Non-combat drops where ships can land and unload properly, or spend a long time allowing couriers, other shuttles and such to deploy as needed.
- 'Strike' insertions: The above require full orbital superiority*, as I see it the Emissary should be capable of inserting past light enemy orbital defences, or in a full fleet engagement 'maybe' slipping past and making it through to the Low Orbit Table(as designed). From here, the 'drop bays' of the Emissary allow around one cadre and a contingent or two of craft to insert directly to the ground from some atmospheric altitude.

Note that the Protector 'could' also do the above role, but it's outfitted with dedicated lander craft so it can keep fighting. The Emissary seems a prime role to work 'all ends'. A proper 'strike cruiser' in that respect.

I don't see why we can't have it at 'hover level', above the level that support craft fly at(or on that level, but since it's a full blown starship, there's really no point pointing standard groundbased weapons at it, or the flights of bombers and stuff found in Epic Games, nothing 'really' stands much of a chance against it[we can say]).

Personally, this has a few more points going for it:

1- It adds massive character to the Emissary ship, allowing for simply awesome and heroic/adventurous actions.
2- It allows for incredible thematics and imagery
3- It borders the line between Manta and 'civilised landings' quite nicely.
4- It's actually a plausible idea, with models we already have, and doesn't require a creation of a new model/roled ship for the lists.(That said, a 'deployment' Manta makes perfect sense as well, but does it make perfect tau-sense?)

EDIT:
* Moving from a BFG PoV, getting a squadron of attack craft down to the ground is pretty difficult, especially considering people are out to stop the drop. For an Emissary it's a simple fly by with everyone ready to drop out, the nose weaponry fires down, the assorted escorts holding down opposition/adding to the fire/holding off attacks from elsewhere, the missiles simply 'fall out' automatically. Seriously, I think this has amazing potential to be a simple 'oooh, wow!' factor for the Tau. Especially given Nerroth's description of the Manta visiting the Trade Delegation over on the SG sight, replace the Manta with a bit better a description of the Emissary and what you've got is legendery imagery IMO.

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 Post subject: Tau lander?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 3:24 am 
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So you are thinking of the Emissary as a Spacecraft in epic perhaps with slightly more conventional weapons and the ability to 'planet fall' a cadre - sort of including a one use Orca/Manta in the price?

The imagery is nice, but perhaps something best left for Epic Airwar if it ever gets made/whatever scale it is. So the ship is actually dodging planetary defenses, squadrons of interceptors trying to prevent the initial invasion etc

Either that or we just find someone to do us a movie of it - Emissary breaking off from the main fleet above, plunging into the atmosphere, through the cloud layer into the skies above a wartorn battlefield whilst squadrons of aircraft on both sides tear past it at dangerous speeds punctuated by the occasional explosion.

Cool, but I think I prefer this for the Mantas, even the Emissary I think is just too big.


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 Post subject: Tau lander?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:56 pm 
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I don't see how it'd be especially useful in Epic Airwar, most aircraft likely can't touch the ship. Basically, it'd be halfway between Manta and Spaceship. Well, it'd fully be a spaceship, but it'd be able to drop things 'like' Planetfall/Orbital Lander(unless there is a better rule to represent it).

Depending on how the final variant comes out, I can see:

1/2 to a full Squadron of Barracudas.
2 Orca Dropships(or Narwhals etc)
6-8(?!) 'Tank Hulls'
One cadre plus up to one Contingents worth of infantry models(any vehicles take space in the Tank Hulls deduction). Infantry however are more available, and there's no 'upper maximum', except what can be taken in a Cadre and Contingent.

Only certain things may drop, of course. Firewarriors/Pathfinders can, if they're in Devilfish. Stealthsuits/Crisis Suits can. So no Kroot, Gue'vesa'la, etc.

Or perhaps, in the spirit of 'only two' 'activations' being able to deploy from it, anything can deploy as part of the 'Drop Cadre' force(not necesserilly a distinct cadre, unless anyone has a good idea there). So it'd be representative of some of the far more elite/special ops/highly specialised training units of the Empire. So a Kroot Drop team, for instance(Vulture Kindred dropped from on high?), a Gue'senshi strike team etc?

They are possibilities, afterall...

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 Post subject: Tau lander?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:12 pm 
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Strike varient bombers could probably give it a worry, as would whole wings of aircraft than just the small 'squadrons' of one and two we see now...but hey. Its also a long way from a manta though - you need to go through the 3 meter epic scale escorts first.

I think it might be very cool for a few scenarios (planetary assaults and suchlike oddly enough ;)) but I think it might be getting a bit too 'special case and ruley' for conventional and tournament games - bad enough having to know all the lists without having a unit quite so different as this.

An Emissary swooping down to lend aid to a besieged friendly embassy/governors palace heralding the arrival of the Tau to a world would be quite a cool scenario though (even if again its blurring on Manta territory)






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 Post subject: Tau lander?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 7:39 pm 
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If you really want to do the Emissary as you describe, keep the Spacecraft rules but add that any suitable units aboard (jet pack troops, for example) recieve the Planetfall special ability.

That way you still have the Tracer salvo from the ship and it can be kept off-table while still allowing for what you have in mind.

Still doubtful on the whole 'dropping tanks from mid-to-high atmosphere' thing, though. In such a situation, such a force should have similar limitations to AVs that Elysians have (so anything that can drop by itself, such as a Moray or Orca, or is more or less designed to be dropped, like a Narwhal, is fine, but Hammerheads and Devilfish are a no-no) and thus lend theselves more to battlesuit-heavy formation choices (jetpack-equipped suits can drop themselves, Broadsides have to be ferried via Orca).

Which is quite characterful, in my view!


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