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Review of Tau Assault on IG http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5453 |
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Author: | nealhunt [ Mon Nov 28, 2005 10:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Review of Tau Assault on IG |
We played a Tau v IG game. The idea was to test some of the statements and hypotheses that have been bandied about in the Tau discussions. The scenario was weighted against Tau. It required the Tau to succesfully engage an administorum building to capture some thingamajig or another. The board was 10'x4', with a dogleg, and required the Tau to cover about 8' of table length. Obviously, 4' width somewhat limited the maneuver advantage of the Tau also. Basically, a meatgrinder to test durability versus a very heavy armor force to test AT capacity. IG: All-Basilisk arty co SHT co + russ Russ co + demolishers Warlord titan Reaver titan HQ 2x Stormtroopers in valkyries 2x T-bolt formations 4x Hydras (1 with each company) Tau: FW in DF w/ Pathfinders and Ethereal Crisis w/ Hvy drones and SC Armor Cadre w/ HH - 8 IC Stingrays w/ stingrays and Piranhas Piranhas w/ piranhas Heavy Drones Stealth w/ drones Scorpionfish/Narwhal 2x Guevesa w/ guevesa 2x Manta FW formation w/ FW, Heavy Drones, Piranhas loaded in Manta Barracudas 2xTigersharks, railcannon versions It was ~6500 Tau v ~5500 IG, but I promptly forgot to put out the Stingray formation, so it ended up being about 6K. As I said, it was basically a meatgrinder for the Tau and the force was definitely not tailored for the scenario. Even at the full 6500 it was a long shot at succeeding. They decided to retreat for the Greater Good after about 6 turns. In that time, they destroyed both titans and most of the SHT co, while losing all the HH, Stealth, and Piranhas, and most of the Ethereal formation. In addition, one of the Mantas was alive only by the slimmest of margins (1 DC left) and only because the saves were simply unreal. General observations AT: AT is okay, if slightly low. As I said, I forgot the Stingrays. The Piranhas were an early IG target and broke on Turn 1. An unfortunate intermingling of the Ethereal formation and the armor formation led to their doom because I didn't see the Valkyries behind the trees and they were swamped by Stormtroopers. It was only at that point that I felt I was suffering for AT ability and even then I saw some ways to do some damage to AVs with Guevesa assaults. In return for the slightly weak AT, they are obviously very good at taking out infantry and have a lot of access to TK weapons. Overall, I think that's an okay setup with respect to balance. GMs: As noted, none of the GM-heavy formations saw combat. Had my stupidity not left 500 points of GM-toting pieces off the board, I think the Titans would have been toast in a fraction of the time because the GMs would have stripped shields that the TK weapons ended up dropping. Mantas: Great Googly Moogly! ![]() A company of 120cm direct firing Basilisks that can always see you is... shocking to say the least. I can't think of anything that might possibly be more brutal than support craft trying to cover 8' of board against that. Bleh. Still, overall the toughness of the Manta felt about right. The firepower is better than a titan. The AA value was highly useful as I brought aircraft in between the two of them to protect them from interception even after all the IC HH's died. The total point cost seems just about right, but I did post about the FF value in the thread on support craft and I do think the Initiative should be 1. Aircraft: Both my opponents felt that the air might be a bit too tough. The Railcannon Tigersharks were the biggest concern, but it was more the point value than the abilities that were bothersome. Crisis Suits: Can't comment on the infantry/LV balance. I goofed it up. We targetted them as LVs, but I constantly forgot to take terrain checks, essentially moving them as infantry. Just too many new things to keep track of. Drones: We need some clarification on the intent of the drone targetting rules. My understanding was that the "can be assigned AT hits" was strictly so they could shield AVs or LVs in the formation with them - that it was not to allow them to be targetted in essentially the same way that LVs are. In light of that, we played it so that drones in an all-infantry formation were not vulnerable to AT fire. If I was correct, that needs to be clarified. If not, well, I cheated my opponents out of ~8 AT shots. Command and Control: I did find that they kept BMs. Basically, with so few leaders, within a couple turns of fighting most of the formations had a lingering 1-2 BMs that made activations much more difficult. In later turns I almost never retained initiative because it was virtually always a 4+ to activate. That would have happened much sooner in a GT scenario. I even felt most of the time that the IG had better C&C than I did. Maybe I'm off on this, but I tend to think that is just plain wrong. There is every reason to think that Tau ought to have C&C ability somewhere below Eldar/SM but solidly above IG. At the very least, the Mantas ought to have an Initiative of 1. I could also buy into an argument that the "elite" battlesuit formations should have Initiative of 1. Overall feel: The list felt in many ways like a lighter, faster version of the IG. I ended up unable to use some of the typical Tau-ish bits (only one CF and the GM formations essentially evaporated) and wasn't able to capitalize on the maneuver advantage due to the scenario. Basically, right now I'd put them as something between IG and Eldar. |
Author: | Honda [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:08 am ] |
Post subject: | Review of Tau Assault on IG |
We played a Tau v IG game. ?The idea was to test some of the statements and hypotheses that have been bandied about in the Tau discussions. The scenario was weighted against Tau. ?It required the Tau to succesfully engage an administorum building to capture some thingamajig or another. ?The board was 10'x4', with a dogleg, and required the Tau to cover about 8' of table length. ?Obviously, 4' width somewhat limited the maneuver advantage of the Tau also. Basically, a meatgrinder to test durability versus a very heavy armor force to test AT capacity. |
Author: | Tactica [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:22 am ] |
Post subject: | Review of Tau Assault on IG |
I'm sure it was just for mission, but the warlord, reaver, and baslalisk co's aren't really considered to be the 'strong' IG choices from 'this' IG vet. ![]() PS, I typically put the demolishers with the mech infantry co where their guns will have more of a chance of use. Putting them in with russess... well, why not just get more russes to have the range work with the formtion? PSS - OMG!! Where the heck were all the manticores and Vultures? Those two choices alone are just absolute staples in the local arenas I've ventured an epic game or 20 in! ![]() Anyway, I agree with Honda... what were those Tau thinking? Tau don't even consider meatgrinder a tactic worth considering! BAD TAU! ![]() Seriously, I understand the scenerio and it sounds like it was a really fun battle. The dog leg sound like something I'm going to have to make use of in the near future. Cheers for the idea. I found your finding comments pretty interesting. The tau blow in combat, there's no doubt about it. I noted your Manta findings and responded to them elsewhere. Regards to the leader ability, i fully agree - we are lacking. I've found it frustrating in more than one game to have blast markers all over the place - rallying broken tau is never a fun prospect. Considering the 40K tau ability to 'bond' and the whole 'bonding knife' thing - Tau rallying in Epic 40K should be so much easier in theory. Doesn't seem to be accurately reflected in E:A for some reason - but with no special rules, hows that to be addressed? Cheers, |
Author: | asaura [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:36 am ] | ||
Post subject: | Review of Tau Assault on IG | ||
(This is very minor) The fact that you forgot to take terrain checks seems to indicate that the simple solution is to have them move as infantry, or make them infantry. Walker is a PITA, what with the rerolls and all. |
Author: | nealhunt [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Review of Tau Assault on IG |
As a Tau player, you'd always want to maneuver your forces away from this type of scenario, however, war being what it is... |
Author: | nealhunt [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:39 pm ] |
Post subject: | Review of Tau Assault on IG |
I'm sure it was just for mission, but the warlord, reaver, and baslalisk co's aren't really considered to be the 'strong' IG choices from 'this' IG vet. ![]() |
Author: | Chroma [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:48 pm ] | ||
Post subject: | Review of Tau Assault on IG | ||
I'm starting to think the Shas'El and Shas'O should be their own individual unit (a Commander and his bodyguard on a stand, in essence a Command Ta?ro?cha) and that this could be then added to other Cadres to lead them. |
Author: | nealhunt [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | Review of Tau Assault on IG |
Oh, one other point I forgot initially: Manta transport - highly limited in usefulness. In this particular case, with an arty co on board, unloading 16 troops within 5cm would have been suicidal. |
Author: | Tactica [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Review of Tau Assault on IG |
Regards to the leader ability, i fully agree - we are lacking. I've found it frustrating in more than one game to have blast markers all over the place - rallying broken tau is never a fun prospect. |
Author: | Honda [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Review of Tau Assault on IG |
Neal, Thanx for the feedback, that was quite helpful. As far as helping out with our command issues, maybe Chroma's suggestion of allowing a command stand could be workable. However, I don't think it should be limited to a crisis suit, perhaps as a 0-1 upgrade to a cadre (spitballing, to give credit to Neal). ![]() |
Author: | Tactica [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:00 pm ] | ||
Post subject: | Review of Tau Assault on IG | ||
NH, The IG artillery Co was going to a threat to that anything that dumped on the field - as is any indirect BP shots I'm sure. Always being seen support craft make even dumping them out of site and hidden a problem - as even direct fire barrages can now catch all the infantry that dump out from the Manta. LOL - been there, done that, got the t-shirt - the ORCS suck! ![]() So the manta's transport ability to bring an army to a hot zone is a major part of the vehicles design and history. Perhaps another reason (add it to the list) to eliminate the always being seen bit on support craft. L4's recomendation of Planetfall and skimmer instead of existing 'support craft' rules is just making more and more sense to me as time goes on. I'm beginning to think the support craft rule causes more problems than its worth. |
Author: | Steele [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:33 pm ] | ||||
Post subject: | Review of Tau Assault on IG | ||||
Maybe we should make them Planetfall/Skimmer , but with the option to ascend high when on double orders - so again beeing visible for that turn but able to see all and drop back at the end of the turn. Something like a huge Pop-Up? Silly thought? Or maybe useful to start on? Steele |
Author: | Lion in the Stars [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Review of Tau Assault on IG |
On the leader thing, it looks like there's also going to be a new 'size' of battlesuit, based on the new special character and the XV22 (25?) Stealth suits (the "Tau'minator" suits). The problem I see is that there should probably only be one Shas'O (since he's the big, big cheese), but multiple Shas'Els (as separate units, not an addition to a unit) would be a good start. I guess I'll have to download the Swordwind rules and read what the Spirit Stones rule actually does. Bonding Firewarriors isn't that effective, and bonded Crisis/Broadside suits is a waste of points (that could be better spent on more FW) in 40k. While I don't think that the Tau should shed BMs as fast as IG, evidently some improvement is in order. I'm not sure what to do about the support craft problem. |
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