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More Way of the Tau
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Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  More Way of the Tau
Per Jaldon:
To do this the Vorash?a Shasal?a.................
(1) Blankets the entire area of contact with markerlights so that guided weapons are being delivered with their full effect.
(2) Uses almost the entire army?s firepower forward, so as close to the enemy as is needed to bring enough firepower to bear to shatter key enemy formations in a single activation.
(3) Uses Coordinated Fire Attacks designed to be just as destructive, and decisive, as a normal Firefight Assault would be.
(4) Fully exploits the plethora of disrupt weapons available to the army, and then uses them to insure that Coordinated Fire Attacks achieve decisive results.


There seems to be a perception that this is a very aggressive doctrine.  I'm not sure that's true, but I do understand how it could seem that way.  (2) seems to favor offensive thinking.  However, I'm not sure that was intended.  Mostly, though, I just don't think an aggressive style is necessary.

In Tau speak, more patient hunter, less killing strike.

Some ideas/combos that I've been thinking of to keep with the slow stalking or gradual baiting of the enemy followed by a smackdown attack.  They focus primarily on area denial to allow the remainder of the Tau force to concentrate when and where they choose.

====

Stealth suits w/ Stingrays
==
Garrison the stealth suits out of LoS of the enemy.  They should have fields of fire/LoS to the sides and slightly forward, maybe up to a 45-degree angle.  Basically, they should form a line of interlocking ML fields so that anyone who tries to approach the Tau line will have to enter the zone and mark themselves.  Put the Stingrays on OW.  Since GMs don't need LoS to hit a marked target, they can hit anything that comes within 75cm of them.  This does several things:

1) It is a huge area denial tactic.
2) It guarantees that any formation which moves forward to threaten the Tau "line" will be hit at least once before they can fire/assault.
3) That initial hit is during the enemy's turn and the opponent will have limited time to react before the Tau can hit it again and attempt to finish it off.

Incidentally, I picked Stealth suits over pathfinders because they are all-infantry and fast - more defensive and easier to redeploy as the game goes on.


Gu'e vesa (wherever the apostrophe goes)
==
Against a maneuver-oriented force use 2 formations of Gue in echelon on a flank.  Optimum placement will be 1/4 to 1/3 of the board width from the edge.  Obviously, it will depend on objective placement.  Use these massive, cheap formations to slowly constrict the enemy.  Very hard to break by shooting and too large to engage effectively, the only real threat to them is clipping.  They will control a lot of territory - about 1/3 of the board or more - and/or require a serious diversion of resources if the enemy decides to counter.

Against other forces, garrison a formation on each flank.  Again, their job is area denial.  Creep forward, pressuring the enemy.  They will be forced to either deal with these cheap but tough formations or allow the Tau great area denial.

In both cases, the idea is much less about doing damage and much more about herding the enemy.  It's a patient stalk, driving the prey to distraction and limiting their ability to respond.

=====

More later.  I'm short on time.
Author:  Tactica [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:41 am ]
Post subject:  More Way of the Tau
Quote (nealhunt @ 14 Nov. 2005 (22:28))
Stealth suits w/ Stingrays
==
Garrison the stealth suits out of LoS of the enemy. ?They should have fields of fire/LoS to the sides and slightly forward, maybe up to a 45-degree angle. ?Basically, they should form a line of interlocking ML fields so that anyone who tries to approach the Tau line will have to enter the zone and mark themselves. ?Put the Stingrays on OW. ?Since GMs don't need LoS to hit a marked target, they can hit anything that comes within 75cm of them. ?This does several things:

1) It is a huge area denial tactic.
2) It guarantees that any formation which moves forward to threaten the Tau "line" will be hit at least once before they can fire/assault.
3) That initial hit is during the enemy's turn and the opponent will have limited time to react before the Tau can hit it again and attempt to finish it off.

Incidentally, I picked Stealth suits over pathfinders because they are all-infantry and fast - more defensive and easier to redeploy as the game goes on.

I think this tactic may have some holes.

OW requires LOF to trigger, so if the stingrays don't have LOF, no triggering.

Seeker missle not requiring LOF has no effect on whether OW is 'triggered' or not from my understanding.

That means the Stingrays will indeed be in plain view in order to trigger. Stingrays aren't the best armored thing out there.

Cheers,
Author:  asaura [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  More Way of the Tau
Quote (Tactica @ 14 Nov. 2005 (23:41))
OW requires LOF to trigger, so if the stingrays don't have LOF, no triggering.

What makes you think so? I just read 1.10 and saw no LOF requirement. (There's one indirect reference to LOF in paragraph 4, but it's not relevant here.)
Author:  Steele [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  More Way of the Tau
Quote (Tactica @ 15 Nov. 2005 (00:41))

OW requires LOF to trigger, so if the stingrays don't have LOF, no triggering.

Seeker missle not requiring LOF has no effect on whether OW is 'triggered' or not from my understanding.

That means the Stingrays will indeed be in plain view in order to trigger. Stingrays aren't the best armored thing out there.

Cheers,

I?m not so sure about this one. I read somewhere that a Unit with Guided Missiles on OW may even fire without LOF if the Target Formation is lit by some ML Unit with LOS/LOF. therefore popping up and firing the missiles would be ok.

Cheers!
Steele
Author:  Honda [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  More Way of the Tau

I?m not so sure about this one. I read somewhere that a Unit with Guided Missiles on OW may even fire without LOF if the Target Formation is lit by some ML Unit with LOS/LOF. therefore popping up and firing the missiles would be ok.



This was my understanding as well.
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  More Way of the Tau
There's no LoS requirement for OW.  You just have to be able to fire at the target.  This was a huge deal when trying to balance Deathstrikes.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  More Way of the Tau
I like Jaldon's "aggressive" (?) Tau tactic/style, but Neal you have some good ideas there too !   Maybe a "melding" of the two could have some merit ... may have to think about this ! :;):
Author:  clausewitz [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  More Way of the Tau
Just to add to Neal's comments. I have used this tactic with Piranha formations on OW.  It has been fairly effective, and is certainly a good way of keeping the formation hidden when it fires.
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 5:37 pm ]
Post subject:  More Way of the Tau
Cw:  How is the formation?  That is exactly the use which concerned me.  10 AP4 or AP5 shots, depending on OW or Sustain seemed pretty good for a 250 point unit, especially considering it was 10 skimmers that didn't require LoS.  It gives me this idea:


Piranhas/Stingrays
==
It seems like this would be good in combination.  One stays on OW while the other moves forward (probably popping up to hit marked targets).  Switch.  Creep the ML line forward steadily to keep targets marked.

I think the only major complaint might be cost, but so far we're talking about 250 for the Piranhas, 375 (400?) for the Stingrays and a handful of ML units that would likely be in the front line anyway.

===

Tetras/Piranhas
==
At 275 for 10 units, 6 Tetras w/ 4Piranhas should give the enemy fits.  They can be scattered across the entire battle line in a similar manner to the Crisis Suits in the above example, though blocked LoS should take a higher priority than looking for ML "fields of fire."  You also need to be careful about intermingling.  However, they serve several purposes:

1)  A backup ML line for that area denial.
2)  A relay for CF actions.  With the Tetra's Coordinated Fire ability and 6 scout units plus 4, these provide a way for the Tau to use any set of formations they desire for CF.  Also, being widely dispersed, fast, and skimmers makes it highly likely that if they participate in a CF they can be used to mark, crossfire, or double move to chase down a formation that breaks in order to finish it off.
3)  A fast reaction force if part of the line starts to waiver.  This could be especially useful in supporting a Gue Auxiliary if the oppnent decides that the constriction is not to their liking.
4)  If you had both the Stealths and the Tetras, that would be a huge amount of ZoC coverage to defend against planetfall.
5)  Plus, for only 275 points, it's pretty decent firepower.

Personally, this seems to me to be very Tau-ish.  It is just about as multi-purpose a formation as I can imagine and can be used to "plug in" on short notice wherever the Tau army needs it.
Author:  clausewitz [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  More Way of the Tau
Neal: the piranha formation has been decent but not overly impressive.  I found having 10 LV in a formation made it difficult to hide without bunching up (and artillery makes short work of LVs when they bunch up).  I've tended to use them to support FW formations, when the FWs move in to shoot with their short range weapons, the Piranhas can provide the backup AT shots.
The Stingrays have proved far more devastating.  When I fielded the formation of 6 Stingrays, I used stealths in a crisis cadre to provide MLs, moved the crisis cadre up to the target (it was a IG Reg. HQ), and followed up with a sustained fire from the Stingrays.  The 18 ignore cover AP shots wiped out all but 2 IG infantry.
Author:  Tactica [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  More Way of the Tau
Sorry Gents... I may be woefully mistaken, but I believe I'm dead on here. I would love for our GM's to work as NH described and as many of you had thought, but I fear they do not.

This is why...


1.10 Overwatch







Also note that formation on overwatch may only react when a formation moves or unloads to troops. They may not choose to shoot at a formation that does anything else in their line of fire, such as shooting without moving or regrouping.


This states that an overwatch formation is _reacting_ to an enemy movment or unload. It further states in the second sentence that the overwatch formation "may not choose to shoot at a formation that does anything else in their line of fire, such as..."

This therefore states that the only thing you can do is fire when the enemy formation is within your LOF and you may only do this *IF* the enemy is also moving or unloading.


Resolve the shooting attacks using the nromal rules. The overwatching formation must shoot at the formation that triggered the shooting - it can't pick a different tareget. Once it has fired, the formation is no longer considered to be on overwatch.

Here we establish that the OW formation's shooting is being triggered. It's triggered because its reacting. Its reacting because something moved or was unloaded in its LOF.





Example of play: Overwatch




Later in the same turn, another Ork formation chooses a double action and moves across in front of the Imperial Guard on overwatch. At the end of their first move, the Orks are within line of fire of the Imperial Guard detachment, but the player decides not to shoot at them since their secon move will take them closer to another unit with which he can shoot them anyway. The overwatch is not triggered and still goes on...

This establishes that an ork moving within LOF of the IG detachment was what gave the IG player the right to decide whether he wanted his IG to fire on OW. It further states that since this option was not invoked, that OW was not triggered.

The rules seem to be clear. If LOF is not established, a formation may react what it cannot see, and therefore may not trigger OW shooting unless movement or unloading occurs within LOF of the OW formation.

Therefore, as much as I'd love to be wrong here - and I don't want to poo on everyone's parade, but... GM do not require LOF if a target is marked - but OW does. OW shooting is the triggered result of a formation reacting to an enemy moving within their LOF. So GM on OW (as written) are no good unless the OW unit in question has LOF to the target - so they might react per OW rules.

:80: ?:down: ?:/

Cheers,



Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  More Way of the Tau
Poor drafting aside, it's long been established that anything that does not require LoS can OW anything in range.  Deathstrikes were extensively playtested with exactly those rules.
Author:  Tactica [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:11 am ]
Post subject:  More Way of the Tau
NH, I can't really comment on how the deathstrike was playtested.

Poor drafting on the overwatch rule's case, I'll agree with you. However, I'll submit to you and the rest - the rule and intent looks pretty darn clear when examined.

Cheers,
Author:  Legion 4 [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:31 am ]
Post subject:  More Way of the Tau
Hmmm ... I guess we/I need a clarification on this.   Obviously you must have LOS/LOF to shoot while on OW ... but what if the Weapon (Deathstrike) does not need LOS ? ???
Author:  nealhunt [ Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  More Way of the Tau
Tactica:  Yes, the OW rules require LoS.  I think that's obvious and I don't think anyone has said they do not.

That is beside the point.  This is a matter of exceptions overruling more general rules.  The "deeper" exception always takes precedence.  The rule (for ML or Deathstrikes) does not say that it "does not need LoS for normal fire per rule section 1.9."  It says they don't need LoS to fire.  No stated exceptions.  It works like this:

Firing general rules
*exceptions for OW firing
**exceptions to all firing for "no LoS"

It's no different than:

Armor save general rules
*exceptions for RA armor saves
**MW and TK exceptions to all armor saves

or:

Aircraft general rules
*grounded aircraft use ground unit rules
**grounded aircraft may still use the disengage aircraft rule


As to other potential rules interactions:

FF and FF support - "No LoS" would not allow units to FF or support without LoS.  Why not?   The rule applies to specific weapons systems, neither of which are Small Arms so they don't have an effect in assaults.

Crossfire - Mixed.  The requirement is that the friendly formation that the crossfire line is drawn to must have a Line of Fire.  The special rules allow the units to fire (any kind of fire) without LoS, but does not eliminate any other LoS requirements.  So, a hidden GM unit could not be used by another formation to claim crossfire because the GM unit does not have LoS.  OTOH, the GM formation could claim crossfire if there was another Tau formation with proper distance and LoS to the target.

Personally, I think that sounds about right.  The penalty is due to the fact that the target units don't know how to react because the enemy is all round them.  If they are taking fire from a visible unit and they have no idea IDF units are behind the treeline, they won't care.  OTOH, if they are taking fire from behind the treeline and know that they are also threatened by "those guys over there" then it would have effect.
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