Tactical Command
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

Tau Rules Questions
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5409		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Rules Questions
Well, played a couple of games against Tau last night and a couple of questions came up:

Coordinated Fire

When a unit is fired at via coordinated fire, does it take a blastmarker for "coming under fire" once or one for each formation participating in the coordinated fire? ?We played that each participating formation placed a blast marker on the target and we wanted to confirm that was correct.

Tau Technology - Tau Jump Packs

1. ?Are units that choose to "fall back" able to base/enter ZOC of enemy units attempting to engage them?

2. ?If an entire formation "falls back" out of charge range of an Engaging enemy does an assault still occur, presumably just using resolution modifiers as no causalties can be inflicted.

3. ?If two Tau units are engaged and one is able to "fall back" completely out of assault range of the enemy is it still involved in the assault?

XV8 Crisis Battlesuits

Should the XV8 suits have walker?

Markerlights and guided missiles

Why do people feel that GM should be 5+? ?With markers and sustatained fire those base 6+ GMs were very damaging to my forces. ?Just wonder why people feel they should be even better.

That's all I can think of right now, we'll try to play some more this week.
Author:  asaura [ Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Rules Questions
(these are not official answers. However, I'm pretty sure I'm right  :cool:)

1. Coordinated Fire

There's nothing to indicate that there would only be 1 BM. Each of the Coordinated Fire formations takes a separate action. The shooting part of that action may or may not (e.g. out of range) place a BM on the target formation.

2. Tau Jump Packs

2.1 Entering ZoC

The only time you can enter an enemy ZoC is when you're performing a charge move (see rules, 1.7.3 and 1.12.3) or countercharging (see 1.12.4).

The Tau Jet Packs rule does not specifically allow entering ZoCs. Therefore, it is not allowed. However, the Tau Jet Packs rule can be read so that a jet pack -equipped formation decides not to fall back and could then countercharge with the normal rules.

2.2 Falling back out of range

Fallback with jet packs occurs before the charge move. Determining if the assault gets in range of the enemy takes place after the charge move (see 1.12.3). Therefore, if the Tau formation falls back out of range, the assault stops after the charge with no resolution.

2.3 Some intermingled formations falling back

(presumably, you meant "formations" instead of "units" with the question)

According to 1.12.10, it is enough for the target formations to be intermingled to be involved in the assault. This means that if everyone does not get out of range, all target formations are included in the assault.

We have a house rule that states that the attacker needs to get within range and los of all target formations to have them included in the assault. In this case, a single formation could jump out of range and escape the assault. It may be that the Experimental Assault Rules have something to this effect.

3. Crisis walkers

I asked this same question from JimmyGrill a while back. The answer was: "no, Crisis suits don't have walker by design".

4. 5+ GMs

I feel the same way. The missiles are ok at 6+.
Author:  Nerroth [ Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:06 am ]
Post subject:  Tau Rules Questions
Seconded on the missiles point - planting a formation of Stingrays on your home objective and using a swarm of sustained firing, marled submunitions missiles on an enemy infantry formation is quite useful enough as it is!

Gary
Author:  Chroma [ Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Rules Questions
Quote (asaura @ Oct. 10 2005,18:33)
3. Crisis walkers

I asked this same question from JimmyGrill a while back. The answer was: "no, Crisis suits don't have walker by design".

I really don't understand this one at all!  Even the Broadsides have walker!  This means Crisis XV8 suits going into woods or ruins need to make single roll dangerous terrain tests... that hardly seems right!
Author:  asaura [ Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Rules Questions
Quote (Chroma @ Oct. 12 2005,13:22)
I really don't understand this one at all! ?Even the Broadsides have walker! ?This means Crisis XV8 suits going into woods or ruins need to make single roll dangerous terrain tests... that hardly seems right!

Well, the Crisis suits move by jumping around and are pretty big. I think JG's idea is that they don't want to have their mobility obstructed by having to worry about tree-trunks and the like. Broadsides are slow and therefore have plenty of time to walk over stumps etc. If you want to have Crisis suits enter a wooded area, just take it slow; moving less than 5 cm allows you to reroll the dangerous terrain test (see rules, section 1.8.1).
Author:  Tactica [ Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Rules Questions
XV8 - This discussion was covered at length before the crash of the boards.

Thiers actually no reason why the defacto standard of infantry shouldn't be used for broadsides and crisis. They don't need to be light vehicles is the real problem. If you turn them back into infantry, as they are normally in 40K, then the need for walker goes away as well.

So does the need for drone rule for that matter.

The debate was further argued on the specialist games boards in the experimental rules. Look for the LV principles discussion.

The general consensus is that by making certian non vehicles into light vehicles, you create a rules precident in one list that's not followed by all lists.

Example, if crisis and broadsides are LV's - why aren't Tzeentch chosen terminators, Obliterators, or Ogryns?

The debate concludes that LV should be reserved for armor 10 vehicles in 40K - that's it.

Regarding GM's, the problem is many formations in Tau rely on GM for AT potential. The list in general is AT light by many player accounts. GM down to 5+ helps remedy this.

The counter against Tau and their AT potential is fairly easy once you figure out which units actually deal the damage. The GM5+ allows more than just the hammerheads and morays to deal AT damage.

Stingrays deal with AP quite well, I agree, but so does the tau list in general. AP isn't where the list needs help.

Try playing the tau against a heavy IG or heavy eldar list for an example. Those are not conclusive examples, just two of many possibilities. You'll have to play against somebody savvy with those lists of course.

CF works great to place blast markers, but setting up CF with it is harder than it looks on paper. Savvy players are aware of what the tau can do. Tau don't have exceptionally speedy movement. To keep your formations out of the enemy ZOC, manouvre into CF and to get another formation within 45cm is tricky. Savvy players should not allow you to set this up typically.

These comments are all my groups experience after playing the heck out of the tau list anyway.

In general, we are disappointed with the Tau list in comparison to IG, Eldar, Orks and Chaos lists.
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Rules Questions
The debate concludes that LV should be reserved for armor 10 vehicles in 40K - that's it.


The debate didn't conclude anything.  The Armor-10 opinion was a slight majority opinion and most of the people who thought that was the best guideline agreed that it has been and probably will be violated by special cases.
Author:  Tactica [ Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Rules Questions
I suppose I interpreted the results differently.

A majority, even if slight, is of value IMHO.

The fact that a significant amount of the active champions went also agreed with the majority (as noted above) was perhaps more telling.

I would encourage all to read through the SG thread and make their own conclusions.
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Rules Questions
For the record, I've read up on it more and I'm fine with Crisis suits as infantry, though I still think Broadsides should be LV.
Author:  Tactica [ Mon Oct 17, 2005 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Rules Questions
NH,

Noted.

For the record, I think both (crisis and broadsides) should be infantry and see no problems it.

I also see no reason why either should be deemed LV considering 1) the 40K comparison codex, 2) how similar precident units in 40K are converted into Epic:A formatons, and 3) the fact the the original reason both Epic:A crisis and Epic:A broadsides were changed from infantry to LVs in development - is now 100% gone. (I've elaborated all three of these points at length in previously now lost threads)

IMHO - I see no reason to make both of them anything but what they actually are now. That is - Infantry.

Future thinking - broadsides in the next 40K codex are supposed to get Advanced Stabalization System upgrade availble. This is already foreshadowed in FW:IA3:TC. Multiple rumor sites have said this will give them slow and purposeful Universal Special Rule. So they will be 2 wound infantry that can move and fire heavy weapons. Their will be 3 to a unit in 40K with an optional 6 more infantry models added to the unit (drones) to bulk up the models in the unit for a total of 9 models and 12 wounds in 40K.

Final thought for comparison, Obliterators can take 3 models or 6 wounds to a unit in 40K. They are limited to one unit per army in 40K. Not that I think this part is relivent - but they are also 'slow and purposeful' in 40K. In epic, Obliterators are not light vehicles.

See also; 2-wound slow & purposeful thousand sons Terminators in 40K = infantry in epic.

'wave'

Rob
Author:  asaura [ Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Tau Rules Questions
Broadsides could even be credible AVs. They are similar to SM and Ork Dreadnoughts. Also, they have 75 cm range weapons. No infantry so far has weapons with ranges over 45 cm, IIRC.

Crisis and Broadside suits should be vulnerable to AT weapons. That's the primary reason I think they should be LV (or even AV, as noted above).
Author:  N0-1_H3r3 [ Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Rules Questions
Quote (asaura @ 21 Oct. 2005 (11:42))
Broadsides could even be credible AVs. They are similar to SM and Ork Dreadnoughts. Also, they have 75 cm range weapons. No infantry so far has weapons with ranges over 45 cm, IIRC.

Crisis and Broadside suits should be vulnerable to AT weapons. That's the primary reason I think they should be LV (or even AV, as noted above).

Thing is, under the 40k rules, everything is potentially vulnerable to AT weapons... a Crisis suit is, however, no more resilient to enemy attacks than two space marines - thus, a stand of Crisis suits (2-3 suits) should be about as resilient as a stand of Space Marines (5-6 marines). Broadsides aren't much tougher - a 2+ save in 40k compared to a 3+. At best, they're as resilient as twice their number in Terminators - who're also infantry, and who're generally based 5 to a stand (compared to 2-3 for Broadsides).
Author:  asaura [ Fri Oct 21, 2005 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Rules Questions
Huh? Surely 2-3 big targets are much more vulnerable to AT fire than 5 small ground-hugging targets. As it says in the Murphy's Laws of Armor, "GUNNER, SABOT, SNIPER" (firing an anti-tank shell at a sniper) is not an appropriate use of ammunition. However, "GUNNER, SABOT, BROADSIDE" sounds perfectly ok.
Author:  N0-1_H3r3 [ Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Tau Rules Questions
Quote (asaura @ 21 Oct. 2005 (12:24))
Huh? Surely 2-3 big targets are much more vulnerable to AT fire than 5 small ground-hugging targets. As it says in the Murphy's Laws of Armor, "GUNNER, SABOT, SNIPER" (firing an anti-tank shell at a sniper) is not an appropriate use of ammunition. However, "GUNNER, SABOT, BROADSIDE" sounds perfectly ok.

They're not that much bigger than Marines, either - and they're a lot more agile (at least Crisis suits). Certainly not Dreadnought size, and noticably smaller than a Killa Kan - which is, as far as I can remember ATM, the smallest AV currently in the game. They're not regular infantry targets, by any means, but IMO, they're not large or heavily-built enough to count as AV.
Author:  Tactica [ Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:38 am ]
Post subject:  Tau Rules Questions
You guys are forgetting the drones on the stands as well as as the fact that crisis have multiple wounds and marines have 1.

Crisis really aren't that much bigger than marines when considering the scale of epic - the difference would be negligable at best.

Crisis have up to 6 drones in that 40K unit where marines in 40K have a max of up to 10 men (1 w each). Crisis are 2 wounds each on top of that.

So crisis in 40K:
9 models @ 12 wounds

assault Marines in 40K:
10 models @ 10 wounds

crisis in E:A
2-4 models per stand + drones

Assault marines in E:A
3-5 marines per stand.

There is no reason for crisis NOT to be infantry.

The same comparison can be made with broadsides and drones (max squad size) compared to 10 terminators. If one is infantry, they are both infantry.

If broadsides are LV - explain obliterators being infantry in black legion or thousand sons terminators being infantry.
Page 1 of 4 All times are UTC [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/