I'm just curious, and I'm hoping maybe JimmyGrill can shed some light, as to why the Tau are given such generally low FF values - given the fluff regarding them being such great shooters technology-wise etc. (and I remember someone once describing an assault in E:A to be approximating to one game of 40K).

I understand they dont have the stomach for base-to-base close combat but if they are generally disposed to stand-off shooting wouldn't a greater FF value be more applicable? In comparison to, say, a Space Marine Assault unit FF of 5+(with bolt pistols etc) are bolt pistols then highly accurate weapons at range?

Granted, a Tau FW's accuracy is lesser than your average Marine's(3 as opposed to 4 in 40K terms), but wouldn't the added armour penetration and tech of a pulse rifle(again going by 40K standards) count for more than a 5+ FF value? Surely the fact the enemy are closer doesn't mean the FW will be shooting that nasty weapon any less accurately? Indeed, wouldn't it be the other way around given shorter distances to target?(Of course, I realise we are dealing with abstracts here too but sometimes you just have to ask...)

Or has the fact that pulse carbines/rifles get to fire at distance (15cm/30cm) "dumbed down" the stat line for the Tau FW in E:A for the balance and cost per unit, or more for general game play reasons?

EDIT- all this has me wondering about this vs Eldar too. Is it possible for Tau to beat the Eldar?? Better values everywhere and longer ranges!

Having not played a game with Tau yet these questions are, of course, observations I've so far made on the Tau 4.1 list.
So please don't take me for anyone who understands the Tau yet ?

Cheers!

I think the idea is that the Tau units were deliberately made weak in FF so that they would often prefer not to Engage, but to use Advance and Sustained Fire actions. This was to build a distinctive character for the Tau.

Asaura got it right. This is what I remember Jimmygrill said some time ago.

I find it characterful, although I do find this design concept could be smoothed sometimes. Take a devilfish for example: the change is big when decreasing FF from 5+ to 6+ (halve FF). Keeping 5+ would have suited better here i think.

The same goes for the Mooray. FF6+, whereas I would rather imagine support craft to be the hardest thing to pull off in an assault.

Tau psychology is just not supposed to be good for up close and personal combat, whether or not it's actually hand-to-hand.  The FF values are generally 1 lower than they should be compared to the firepower they pack.


Regarding Eldar - Eldar have low volume of high-quality fire (lots of MW and AT).  That means against forces with relatively high-point units they will do very well because each shot does a lot of damage (kills a lot of points).  SMs are the worst, imho, but Tau and Chaos Marines also suffer to a certain extent.

The key, again in my opinion, is to make sure you have bulk formations in your army.  Use them to restrict Eldar movement and lines of retreat.  In a straight shooting battle, the low Eldar numbers generally show, even if their firepower is better on a per-unit basis.

I haven't tried it, but it seems to me a formation of Stingrays on OW would be a good counter.  Because they don't need LoS to a marked target, they can fire at anything that gets in range of any markerlight unit.  That should be serious area-denial to help counter the Eldar maneuver advantage.

_________________
Neal

Dobby,

The reality of this all is rather simple actually.

One Combat in E:A does reflect a whole game of 40k. This is from Jervis.

Tau used to have great FF values, in fact, it used to be one of JG's design elements for the army.

Tau also used the 'current jet pack rule' for everyone in the army. In other words, EVERY unit used to be able to back away 10cm before the enemy charged.

These two rules together made a deadly combo. Tau could keep the enemy out E:A combat, and when they did get combat, they had to fight on the tau's very good FF terms. These two rules together created something that wasn't intended, Tau charges in E:A.

Tau were so good at FF, that they could back away from the enemy's charges, and could then engage at will with their own FF to crush the enemy.

This was not seen as something aligned with the Greater Good's way of thinking.

The result was to lower the effectiveness by raiding the FF values. That did some good, but in the end, it didn't really help enough as Tau could completely keep the enemy out of combat still in many cases.

In the following revisions, Tau FF was lowered even more, but the REALLY SIGNIFICANT change was the creation of the tau jet pack rule only for tau jet pack equipped units.

Unfortunately, this current Tau jetpack rule doesn't at all reflect what Tau do in 40K with jetpacks... which is exactly what the Eldar really do in E:A. They stole what should be our rule. The hit and run is perfect for tau and is very justified in E:A - but the Eldar took it... ok, don't get me started... I digress.

Ergo our current state of affairs.

Now we no longer get to back away from combat, but we still have really crappy FF.

I think you are correct, FF could now be brought back up a notch in effectiveness (down in actual numbers) as Tau no longer benefit from what was really the problem - everyone having 'get away 10cm before the enemy charges' rule.

According to Fluff, tau should actually excell at FF values (40K) and blow once engaged.

JG must wiegh the balance of doing so.

Right now, I absolutely agree with you. Tau FF are too low and unfluffy for their background.

The greater gooderer would like to see this revised.

Unfortunately, I have no idea when JG will be back in the loop or if he'll post a replacement in his absense. If he would, it would be nice. Perhaps we could make some much needed tweaks in the interum.... but again I digress.

_________________
Rob

Quote (Tactica @ Oct. 06 2005,16:15)

Unfortunately, this current Tau jetpack rule doesn't at all reflect what Tau do in 40K with jetpacks... which is exactly what the Eldar really do in E:A. They stole what should be our rule. The hit and run is perfect for tau and is very justified in E:A - but the Eldar took it... ok, don't get me started... I digress.

So, as a suggestion, why not let Tau use the hit-n-run rules as well instead of trying to create some other special rule?  Doesn't that solve the problem?

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?

Quote (Chroma @ Oct. 06 2005,16:33)

Quote (Tactica @ Oct. 06 2005,16:15) Unfortunately, this current Tau jetpack rule doesn't at all reflect what Tau do in 40K with jetpacks... which is exactly what the Eldar really do in E:A. They stole what should be our rule. The hit and run is perfect for tau and is very justified in E:A - but the Eldar took it... ok, don't get me started... I digress. So, as a suggestion, why not let Tau use the hit-n-run rules as well instead of trying to create some other special rule?  Doesn't that solve the problem?

If you guys want to make the argument that Hit and Run fits Tau combat doctrine and technology as a whole, go for it.  But that's a different argument than the Epic scale effects of jetpack troops using hit-and-run tactics on an individual basis.


The Eldar Hit and Run rule doesn't reflect the 40K use of jetpacks at all.  In 40K, jetpacks allow them to use terrain effectively versus short-range and point-target weapons fire.  How would more effective use of terrain ranslate into rapid movement and target acquisition a la Hit and Run?

Hit and Run would be a scaled up version of what they do on an individual basis, but that's not the same thing as reflecting the effects at Epic scale.  Squad level weapons and tactics (or any other physical ability) don't all just scale up to identical macro-effects.

_________________
Neal

I do have a batrep scheduled for this weekend to prove the following point.

Believe it or not the Tau can carry out a psuedo FF assault that is actually more effective then a normal assault FF.

Should have it posted early next week.


Trust Me

Jaldon

_________________
Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.

I'm guessing you plant a Crisis formation with some suitably shooty formations in support and Co-Ordinate Fire a target formation to death in 15cm range - all while avoiding nasty FF or CC retaliation?

I'd much sooner see a Tau formation or two obliterate an opposing formation through ranged shooting than by risking their little blue necks in an assault, even if it was a firefight.

Gary

_________________


Gue'senshi: The 1st Kleistian Grenadiers

v7.3 pdf

Human armed forces for the greater good.

Sometimes, but far from always Nerroth, in fact the core of the attack isn't based around the use of XV8s, truth is they aren't effective enough to be the base formation of the attack.

My entire new way of using the Tau is far more flexible then that.

And it isn't based around the Tau ever carrying out a true assault FF or CC.

But in recent battles it has turned things around for the Tau here. They have gone from an army that wears an opponent down with firepower to an army that carries out actual in your face decisive attacks that acheive immediate results.

I would just rather present it in batreps rather then just write it up. Then instead of players discussing the idea in the vaccuum of theory the report can be used as a factual baseline.

Your present comment is a  good example of this, it assumes before knowing what the actual idea is (No flame attempt here I am just trying to make a point using your comment as an example).

Jaldon  

_________________
Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.

Quote (Nerroth @ Oct. 06 2005,22:16)

I'd much sooner see a Tau formation or two obliterate an opposing formation through ranged shooting than by risking their little blue necks in an assault, even if it was a firefight. Gary

With what's been said here I tend to agree with you Gary but is it possible?

It seems to be a very awkward proposition to organise 2-3 form'ns to Co-ord attack. Not to mention the fact that it also gives a large target to the enemy (given that the enemy can combine assault ALL your units at once)and restricts Tau to holding only certain parts of the table as it seems you would need half your army to do a Co-ord.  I can see though, a heavy Co-ord would put down a lot of blast markers on it's target. Not sure if it's very decisive though...

e.g If you do a co-ord attack on one unit it's friends beside it get to hit you with a combined assault and we all know assault is generally the deciding factor in wiping out/breaking units. Which still leaves the Tau weak it seems.

I might be missing something in the rules here but could there be a balance with that by changing Co-ord attack to hit multiple units in range? i.e giving more possible hits to ALL enemy before they assault?

At present Combined Assaults give the assaulting force the edge because they may engage any unit it can reach - if the Tau player places carefully this can be avoided of course because of the rules for Intermingled form'ns. But if you could change Co-ord Attack to do the same but be a shooting version instead would it make the Tau rules a bit fluffier?

here's how it is presently(as far as I know):
e.g 3 SM tactical formations are facing off with 3 Tau FW formations.

The Tau can only inflict BMs on one form'n of SM. However, the SM can Combine Assault all 3 Tau form'ns (so long as the Tau are within the 5cm allowed for Intermingled from'ns in an assault). Given this scenario what seems likely to happen is all 3 Tau form'ns get broken.

If Co-ord Attack is changed all 3 Tau can shoot at all three SM and even it up some when the assault finally crashes in.

Please pick holes in this theory as I'm not 100% sure it would be balanced.

Coordinated Fire does not require the formations to be within "intermingled" range (5 cm). It works with 15 cm range from the calling unit's formation.

What Asaura said.  Also, the formations performing Coordinated Fire have no obligation to remain within that 15cm after the action.  They can move however they want.  They just have to fire at the same target formation.

_________________
Neal

Jaldon:  I can't wait to hear.

_________________
Neal

Quote (nealhunt @ Oct. 07 2005,13:53)

What Asaura said. ?Also, the formations performing Coordinated Fire have no obligation to remain within that 15cm after the action. ?They can move however they want. ?They just have to fire at the same target formation.

To me it seems co-ordinated fire is perfect for setting up cross-fires and really hammering a unit.  Each first casualty inflicted by the various co-ordinated formations would lay two blast markers if I'm not mistaken.   That's a lot of blastmarkers!

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?