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Please Critique - 4K v Swordwind Eldar
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5353		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Tactica [ Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:44 am ]
Post subject:  Please Critique - 4K v Swordwind Eldar
Please critique... I'm playing against a guy that likes power, likes armor, and is playing shadow wind eldar right out of the book... I'm expecting lots of vehicles.

We are trying the new pop-up rule that's likely to make it into the next experimental rules... ie. if you are closer than your target to the terrain, you can pop up and fire over.

This guy cleaned my clock last weekend with saim hann eldar. basically almost the same list (so he claims).

Cost       Models    Unit
==== ? ? ?===== ? ==============
250 ? ? ? ?4 ? ? ? ? ? Battlesuite Cadre
125 ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ? ? ? Battesuites
75 ? ? ? ? 3 ? ? ? ? ? ?Tetras

250 ? ? ? ?4 ? ? ? ? ? Battlesuite Cadre
125 ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ? ? ? Battesuites
75 ? ? ? ? 3 ? ? ? ? ? ?Tetras
100 ? ? ? ?- ? ? ? ? ? Shas'o

200 ? ? ? ?8 ? ? ? ? ? FW Cadre

250 ? ? ? ?3 ? ? ? ? ? Rail-Head
125 ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ? ? ? Ion-Head
25 ? ? ? ? ?1 ? ? ? ? ? Swordfish

250 ? ? ? ?3 ? ? ? ? ? Rail-Head
125 ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ? ? ? Ion-Head
25 ? ? ? ? 1 ? ? ? ? ? ?Swordfish

400 ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ? ? ? Scorpionfish Super-Heavy Missle Gunship

300 ? ? ? ?4 ? ? ? ? ? Broadsides
75 ? ? ? ? ?4 ? ? ? ? ?Gundrones

600 ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ? ? ? Mooray Assault Ships

350 ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ? ? ? Whiteshark Bombers

250 ? ? ? ?3 ? ? ? ? ? Barracuda Superiority Fighters
====================================
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1200 ? ? ? ? Air Caste Subtotal
3975 TOTAL

LMK what you think.
Author:  Jaldon [ Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:46 am ]
Post subject:  Please Critique - 4K v Swordwind Eldar
IMHO you need a Cadre of Fire Warriors(Beefed up), or Stealth (beefed up) or Pathfinders (beefed up)

I use these guys against Eldar just as a containment line to keep them from going were ever they feel like it.

Best tactic to use against the Eldar is to crowed them, and then kill them. And for that depth with frontage works best.

Just my two cents

Jaldon :oo
Author:  Steele [ Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Please Critique - 4K v Swordwind Eldar
Hi,

I would augment the FW Cadre as well, I do it with a pair of Hammerheads, one of each type. And sometimes with a Skyray as well, and an Ethereal.

Same game with Crisis Suits, HH plus Drones (Hvy.)

If you field a second FW Cadre on Foot augment with Drones and Broadsides, you may then hold your Backyard with these guys.

Cheers!
Steele
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Please Critique - 4K v Swordwind Eldar
Quote (Jaldon @ 30 2005 July,06:46)
IMHO you need a Cadre of Fire Warriors(Beefed up), or Stealth (beefed up) or Pathfinders (beefed up)

To expand on what Jaldon said, Eldar have high-quality firepower (MW and Lance).  Your list has lots of high-value targets.  That means that every Eldar MW hit is going to take a significant amount of your points out of the game (75-100 points in many cases).  If your opponent takes the amount of armor you claim that high quality fire will shred you in short order.

The small numbers in your formation will never allow you to significantly restrict Eldar movement, let alone pin them.  In a related note on area denial which is often accomplished via Overwatch against Eldar, Tau AT has some distinct drawbacks in the Overwatch department.  This is going to allow the Eldar to dance around you however he sees fit.


The answer to both problems is more bulk.  Cheaper units mean that each of those Eldar shots have less effect on your overall force and large formations can restrict Eldar movement by sheer mass.

In addition to what Jaldon said, drones and/or auxiliary formations can provide inexpensive bulk units.
Author:  Tactica [ Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Please Critique - 4K v Swordwind Eldar
OK guys, first - thanks for responding. Although I'm not replying until now, I did read through this thread the morning of our battle (last saturday) - so many thanks to Jaldon, NH, and Steele for your quick replies.  :)

In general - I'm finding I have a problem with not having enough potent AT shots to deal with the Eldar. Typically they seem to out range me and when they don't, their hit and run puts a hurt on me. I'm also finding they usually out activate me (though there's some dispute as to whether my opponent's been playing his list correctly - props to NH for his recomendations in the playtest thread, I'm working on that one as we speak)

So with AT being a bit of a weakness for me - or perhaps for my playstyle I'm at a bit of a loss for what I should lose in order to beef up the FW cadre.

I've been using the FW's to garrison. Although I'm not sure what "beefed up" really means, sacrificing the garrison means I put my guys further away. So with making sure I can still garrison - what are your typical FW formations looking like that you use to 'crowd' the Eldar?

Also, in a list where I feel like I'm lacking AT and activations - what do I lose? For every point I put into AP, the more I hinder myself against this opponent.

Steele,

If I add AT targets to the FW cadre, aren't the AT targets just sitting ducks? Also, I lose the ability to garrison the formation. As the formation has ML and is used as a forward recon unit and lure - wouldn't the addition of vehicles detur from the overall goal of the formation? Besides, in the list I posted, what would you 'take away from' in order to augment the FW cadre?

You also recommended I increase the size of the crisis suite formations... HH plus heavy drones would make that formation really expensive. What would you take away - being mindful that I'm already short on the activation game.

NH,

Too much quality, not enough quantity seems to be your message. I'm easy pickings for the Eldar almost entirely vehicle force... OK. So how do I rectify that - and maintain the level of AT shots needed? I'm currently struggling in a game where I have amazing dice - just not enough activations or quality AT shots?

The small numbers in your formation will never allow you to significantly restrict Eldar movement, let alone pin them. In a related note on area denial which is often accomplished via Overwatch against Eldar, Tau AT has some distinct drawbacks in the Overwatch department.  This is going to allow the Eldar to dance around you however he sees fit.


I'm having trouble following you here. What I'm understanding you to say is my formations are too small to restrict movement - but even if they were larger - I'd have problems as Tau have distinct overwatch disadvantages in the list - so... As mentioned above, I'm having activation and quality AT shot issues as it is when facing this eldar opponent. So how do I address all concerns then?

The answer to both problems is more bulk. Cheaper units mean that each of those Eldar shots have less effect on your overall force and large formations can restrict Eldar movement by sheer mass.

I challenge you to put said list together. Whereby you have enough AT shots to deal with his army effectively, and increase the bulk, while not losing activations. I'm not saying it can't be done - I'm saying I'm just saying I'm obviously not bright enough to figure this puzzle out.

I realize drones are now better than I thought. I just have completely missed that they act as AP and AT targets when in mixed formations. So that will help. The crisis need a marker light element to their formation but everything needs to be on tau jetpacks to jump away from the charge... the tetras I fielded this past weekend were both a blessing and a curse while satisfying the ML element, they crapped on the jet pack element. the stealths are the obvious choice - but their price is so over the top that they are counter productive. The drones will make a good addition to this formation, but only if I can get ML's to them as well... which means I need cheaper stealths. I'll fill the bat rep out all the way to give you more on my experiences here. See the appropriate thread...

I've found certain units to be absolutely essential against this opponent. Those are the hammerhead formations as built and the Morays with 2x ion-phalanx's. The 2 ions are helpful but not my must have choice. My must have choice is the hammerheads. The At3 and the swordfish's AT2 are key. The ion-head is taken for AA and continued AT output. The skyray I've decided is overpriced for what you get out of it. As a result, I've quite buying it. It needs more power to be effective for its point cost IMHO. I've also realized that Morays by themselves just get broken quickly against this opponent with little or no damage done to them. In order for them to have some staying power, they have to be fielded in pairs.

The broadsides are great if I can get lines - though in this last game they just died horribly do to poor placement more than anything else. The crisis with some amount of marking capability have proven valuable, and the Firewarriros are valuable as long as I have other foramtions that can capitalize off of their marks. (a hard thing to do with 6+ GM and sustained fire being a rarity against this opponent due to his ranges and hit and runs)

The scorpionfish are not something I usually field. I'm trying them out because somebody was ranting and raving about them. I still do not think a pair of them are worth 400 points. They are little more than a big steaming pile IMHO. They didn't die this game, but that's not unusual. My opponent targetted them only once the entire game - they just were not effective in their role so weren't really a threat either. Their AT output is so poor. They were more effective as long range AA than anything else - and only psychologically... with 75cm AA6 - the enemy wanted to avoid getting close to them, but in the 3 times he did, he only took one hit. Second, they have ML's - so when the opponent got close enough to me - I could run the scorpionfish up close and mark him for everything else - LOL - that was an expensive ML formation - that's for sure... Again, this formation proves lack luster for its cost.

In addition to what Jaldon said, drones and/or auxiliary formations can provide inexpensive bulk units.


I hear you there. I've tried to steer clear of auxillary formations but I guess I'm going to have to buy into them. They are inexpensive crap units that can provide cheap activations. drone formations don't do much for me, but I'll give them a look too.

I still don't know what to sacrifice - outside of the scorpionfish - but even then, I lose more AT to put in more bulk wounds with no offensive power against this adversary. Seems like a net loss to the effectiveness of the list.

I'll be very interested in any responses to this thread.
Author:  Salamander [ Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Please Critique - 4K v Swordwind Eldar
How about nailing his SHT formations with pin-point strikes from your Hero cruisers.  Only 150 points for 2 x MW2+ (TK D3) strikes is great value against those 250 point EoV's.
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Please Critique - 4K v Swordwind Eldar
Tactica:  Hey.  I'm afraid I don't have the Tau-specific experience to answer your questions in detail.  I can only address them with respect to general tactics applicable to Eldar abilities.

I'll expand on what I was trying to say and make it more clear.  I'll let you decide if I'm successful. :;):


Area denial is very tough to pull off against Eldar.  In general, there are 2 ways to manage area denial - screens of units or fields of fire.  Tau will lack on the fields of fire because of weak long range weaponry (GMs are not good reactionary weapons).  You could simply forego the idea of area denial for the Tau version of a Hit-and-Run style fight, but you would be fighting a running battle against Eldar, at which they excel.  I don't really think that's an option.

That leaves using bulk formations as your only option.  I hope that clears up what I meant about the area denial.

Infantry as a barrier can take cover in terrain.  Eldar are lacking AP, and what they do have will suffer -1 for cover.  If they try to run up close and fire over the infantry at preferred targets, they are vulnerable to counterattack by the infantry.  If they hit and run, they are taking a penalty on their to-hit rolls, which is especially nice for you if they are shooting Pulse weapons.

A couple big, cheap infantry formations garrisoned in good cover should make it very hard for the Eldar to pick off the choice targets and as you move them toward your objectives, they will screen out the nuisance contesting units.

Also, even though it's not very "Tau-ish" I think you need to remember that FF attacks work for AT.  Those same bulk infantry formations, while being mediocre at FF, can throw a lot of dice into an assault, have decent armor saves, and have a good chance at outnumbering.  You get to inflict a few hits directly and a few more by winning the assault.  Plus, you break a formation.

Eldar recover incredibly well, so it's mandatory that you press any broken formations as strongly as possible.  Aircraft are nice for that, as well as GMs if you can move a ML in range.  Tau can also use Coordinated Fire to good effect to rack up BMs quickly.  As a last resort, AP fire will still place a BM.  Personally, I would "waste" an AP-only formation firing at a broken formation just for the kill in a lot of cases, especially if it finished off, say, an EoV.

======

I'll do my best to give suggestions as to specific force composition, but as I said, keep in mind that I don't have specific experience.

You say that the Hammerheads are mandatory.  That only leaves a few options for bulk, but the big one to me would be the Piranhas.  Generally, I wouldn't want the extra liability of LVs mixed in, but against Eldar with their low amounts of AP and high amounts of MW I don't think it's nearly as much of a hindrance.  Much better to take that MW shot on a 25 point Piranha than a 65 point Hammerhead, for instance.

Also, if you are using the Experimental Rules, the allocation rules allow LVs at the front of a formation to be allocated both AP and AT hits (as 2 hits on a single unit) if you do it right, making Piranhas that much more attractive as a screen and bulk.

With respect to getting MLs into place, is there something that prevents you from upgrading a Battlesuit cadre with heavy drones?  It says "any" upgrades, so couldn't you add 4 drones, then buy the Heavy upgrade for a total of 125 points?  That would give you the bulk and MLs of the Tetras you were using, with Jetpacks, Drone BM rule, and better short range fire (and even FF) for only 25 points more.  Coordinated fire from the Tetras is wasted if you are buying a commander anyway.

As an alternate source of MLs, would a formation of Tetras and Piranhas work for you?  They have the same speed and LV status, and the formation as a whole would be able to make use of the Tetras special abilities (ML, Scout, Coord) while benefitting from the cheaper bulk and firepower of the Piranhas.  275 points for 10 units seems like an effective and cheap activation.

==

Well, I don't know if any of that will help.  Feel free to blow it out of the water.
Author:  Tactica [ Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Please Critique - 4K v Swordwind Eldar
Quote (Salamander @ 02 2005 Aug.,17:41)
How about nailing his SHT formations with pin-point strikes from your Hero cruisers. ?Only 150 points for 2 x MW2+ (TK D3) strikes is great value against those 250 point EoV's.

It's an idea I've yet to explore. Typically, I'm not a fan of paying for a ship for a single pass. Maybe it's worth considering in the Tau list.
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