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[ 8 posts ]

Please Critique - 4K v Swordwind Eldar
Tactica	Post subject: Please Critique - 4K v Swordwind Eldar Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:44 am
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241	Please critique... I'm playing against a guy that likes power, likes armor, and is playing shadow wind eldar right out of the book... I'm expecting lots of vehicles. We are trying the new pop-up rule that's likely to make it into the next experimental rules... ie. if you are closer than your target to the terrain, you can pop up and fire over. This guy cleaned my clock last weekend with saim hann eldar. basically almost the same list (so he claims). Cost       Models    Unit ==== ? ? ?===== ? ============== 250 ? ? ? ?4 ? ? ? ? ? Battlesuite Cadre 125 ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ? ? ? Battesuites 75 ? ? ? ? 3 ? ? ? ? ? ?Tetras 250 ? ? ? ?4 ? ? ? ? ? Battlesuite Cadre 125 ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ? ? ? Battesuites 75 ? ? ? ? 3 ? ? ? ? ? ?Tetras 100 ? ? ? ?- ? ? ? ? ? Shas'o 200 ? ? ? ?8 ? ? ? ? ? FW Cadre 250 ? ? ? ?3 ? ? ? ? ? Rail-Head 125 ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ? ? ? Ion-Head 25 ? ? ? ? ?1 ? ? ? ? ? Swordfish 250 ? ? ? ?3 ? ? ? ? ? Rail-Head 125 ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ? ? ? Ion-Head 25 ? ? ? ? 1 ? ? ? ? ? ?Swordfish 400 ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ? ? ? Scorpionfish Super-Heavy Missle Gunship 300 ? ? ? ?4 ? ? ? ? ? Broadsides 75 ? ? ? ? ?4 ? ? ? ? ?Gundrones 600 ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ? ? ? Mooray Assault Ships 350 ? ? ? ?2 ? ? ? ? ? Whiteshark Bombers 250 ? ? ? ?3 ? ? ? ? ? Barracuda Superiority Fighters ==================================== ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1200 ? ? ? ? Air Caste Subtotal 3975 TOTAL LMK what you think. _________________ Rob
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Jaldon	Post subject: Please Critique - 4K v Swordwind Eldar Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:46 am
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 6:38 am Posts: 720 Location: Utah, pick a Pacific Island the other half of the year.	IMHO you need a Cadre of Fire Warriors(Beefed up), or Stealth (beefed up) or Pathfinders (beefed up) I use these guys against Eldar just as a containment line to keep them from going were ever they feel like it. Best tactic to use against the Eldar is to crowed them, and then kill them. And for that depth with frontage works best. Just my two cents Jaldon _________________ Brave sir Robin, when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled, Brave sir Robin.
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Steele	Post subject: Please Critique - 4K v Swordwind Eldar Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:48 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 6:40 am Posts: 423 Location: Duisburg , Germany	Hi, I would augment the FW Cadre as well, I do it with a pair of Hammerheads, one of each type. And sometimes with a Skyray as well, and an Ethereal. Same game with Crisis Suits, HH plus Drones (Hvy.) If you field a second FW Cadre on Foot augment with Drones and Broadsides, you may then hold your Backyard with these guys. Cheers! Steele _________________ Quid pro Quo
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nealhunt	Post subject: Please Critique - 4K v Swordwind Eldar Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:24 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	Quote (Jaldon @ 30 2005 July,06:46) IMHO you need a Cadre of Fire Warriors(Beefed up), or Stealth (beefed up) or Pathfinders (beefed up) To expand on what Jaldon said, Eldar have high-quality firepower (MW and Lance).  Your list has lots of high-value targets.  That means that every Eldar MW hit is going to take a significant amount of your points out of the game (75-100 points in many cases).  If your opponent takes the amount of armor you claim that high quality fire will shred you in short order. The small numbers in your formation will never allow you to significantly restrict Eldar movement, let alone pin them.  In a related note on area denial which is often accomplished via Overwatch against Eldar, Tau AT has some distinct drawbacks in the Overwatch department.  This is going to allow the Eldar to dance around you however he sees fit. The answer to both problems is more bulk.  Cheaper units mean that each of those Eldar shots have less effect on your overall force and large formations can restrict Eldar movement by sheer mass. In addition to what Jaldon said, drones and/or auxiliary formations can provide inexpensive bulk units. _________________ Neal
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Tactica

Post subject: Please Critique - 4K v Swordwind Eldar Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:32 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:12 am Posts: 2241

OK guys, first - thanks for responding. Although I'm not replying until now, I did read through this thread the morning of our battle (last saturday) - so many thanks to Jaldon, NH, and Steele for your quick replies.   In general - I'm finding I have a problem with not having enough potent AT shots to deal with the Eldar. Typically they seem to out range me and when they don't, their hit and run puts a hurt on me. I'm also finding they usually out activate me (though there's some dispute as to whether my opponent's been playing his list correctly - props to NH for his recomendations in the playtest thread, I'm working on that one as we speak) So with AT being a bit of a weakness for me - or perhaps for my playstyle I'm at a bit of a loss for what I should lose in order to beef up the FW cadre. I've been using the FW's to garrison. Although I'm not sure what "beefed up" really means, sacrificing the garrison means I put my guys further away. So with making sure I can still garrison - what are your typical FW formations looking like that you use to 'crowd' the Eldar? Also, in a list where I feel like I'm lacking AT and activations - what do I lose? For every point I put into AP, the more I hinder myself against this opponent. Steele, If I add AT targets to the FW cadre, aren't the AT targets just sitting ducks? Also, I lose the ability to garrison the formation. As the formation has ML and is used as a forward recon unit and lure - wouldn't the addition of vehicles detur from the overall goal of the formation? Besides, in the list I posted, what would you 'take away from' in order to augment the FW cadre? You also recommended I increase the size of the crisis suite formations... HH plus heavy drones would make that formation really expensive. What would you take away - being mindful that I'm already short on the activation game. NH, Too much quality, not enough quantity seems to be your message. I'm easy pickings for the Eldar almost entirely vehicle force... OK. So how do I rectify that - and maintain the level of AT shots needed? I'm currently struggling in a game where I have amazing dice - just not enough activations or quality AT shots? The small numbers in your formation will never allow you to significantly restrict Eldar movement, let alone pin them. In a related note on area denial which is often accomplished via Overwatch against Eldar, Tau AT has some distinct drawbacks in the Overwatch department.  This is going to allow the Eldar to dance around you however he sees fit. I'm having trouble following you here. What I'm understanding you to say is my formations are too small to restrict movement - but even if they were larger - I'd have problems as Tau have distinct overwatch disadvantages in the list - so... As mentioned above, I'm having activation and quality AT shot issues as it is when facing this eldar opponent. So how do I address all concerns then? The answer to both problems is more bulk. Cheaper units mean that each of those Eldar shots have less effect on your overall force and large formations can restrict Eldar movement by sheer mass.

I challenge you to put said list together. Whereby you have enough AT shots to deal with his army effectively, and increase the bulk, while not losing activations. I'm not saying it can't be done - I'm saying I'm just saying I'm obviously not bright enough to figure this puzzle out.

I realize drones are now better than I thought. I just have completely missed that they act as AP and AT targets when in mixed formations. So that will help. The crisis need a marker light element to their formation but everything needs to be on tau jetpacks to jump away from the charge... the tetras I fielded this past weekend were both a blessing and a curse while satisfying the ML element, they crapped on the jet pack element. the stealths are the obvious choice - but their price is so over the top that they are counter productive. The drones will make a good addition to this formation, but only if I can get ML's to them as well... which means I need cheaper stealths. I'll fill the bat rep out all the way to give you more on my experiences here. See the appropriate thread...

I've found certain units to be absolutely essential against this opponent. Those are the hammerhead formations as built and the Morays with 2x ion-phalanx's. The 2 ions are helpful but not my must have choice. My must have choice is the hammerheads. The At3 and the swordfish's AT2 are key. The ion-head is taken for AA and continued AT output. The skyray I've decided is overpriced for what you get out of it. As a result, I've quite buying it. It needs more power to be effective for its point cost IMHO. I've also realized that Morays by themselves just get broken quickly against this opponent with little or no damage done to them. In order for them to have some staying power, they have to be fielded in pairs.

The broadsides are great if I can get lines - though in this last game they just died horribly do to poor placement more than anything else. The crisis with some amount of marking capability have proven valuable, and the Firewarriros are valuable as long as I have other foramtions that can capitalize off of their marks. (a hard thing to do with 6+ GM and sustained fire being a rarity against this opponent due to his ranges and hit and runs)

The scorpionfish are not something I usually field. I'm trying them out because somebody was ranting and raving about them. I still do not think a pair of them are worth 400 points. They are little more than a big steaming pile IMHO. They didn't die this game, but that's not unusual. My opponent targetted them only once the entire game - they just were not effective in their role so weren't really a threat either. Their AT output is so poor. They were more effective as long range AA than anything else - and only psychologically... with 75cm AA6 - the enemy wanted to avoid getting close to them, but in the 3 times he did, he only took one hit. Second, they have ML's - so when the opponent got close enough to me - I could run the scorpionfish up close and mark him for everything else - LOL - that was an expensive ML formation - that's for sure... Again, this formation proves lack luster for its cost.

In addition to what Jaldon said, drones and/or auxiliary formations can provide inexpensive bulk units.


I hear you there. I've tried to steer clear of auxillary formations but I guess I'm going to have to buy into them. They are inexpensive crap units that can provide cheap activations. drone formations don't do much for me, but I'll give them a look too.

I still don't know what to sacrifice - outside of the scorpionfish - but even then, I lose more AT to put in more bulk wounds with no offensive power against this adversary. Seems like a net loss to the effectiveness of the list.

I'll be very interested in any responses to this thread.