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Tau Jump Packs Question
Jaldon
 Post subject: Tau Jump Packs Question
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:39 am 
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The situation is, A Gun Drone Swarm is declared the target of an assault, it then uses it's movement to go well beyond, and behind, a Fire Warrior Cadre directly behind the Drones former position. The assaulting player doesn't have the movement to reach the Fire Warrior Cadre, and obviously cannot reach the Gun Drones, so what happens to the assaulting formation?

Came up in a battle last night, and we really couldn't decide what to do that made any kind of sense. In the end we allowed the assaulting formation to change it's order to advance and carried on with the battle, even though this didn't 'feel' right.

Jaldon :p

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tau Jump Packs Question
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:43 am 
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Did you consider saying the formations were intermingled and doing it that way? (Assuming they were in range to firefight.)




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Jaldon
 Post subject: Tau Jump Packs Question
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:58 am 
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They weren't within 15cms of each other when the assault was declared so they could not be even remotely considered intermingled.

Jaldon

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JimmyGrill
 Post subject: Tau Jump Packs Question
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:02 pm 
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Yes, this has come up before on the old forum or the shas'ar'tol...

My take on it is that formations may be declared intermingled after the retreat move.
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asaura
 Post subject: Tau Jump Packs Question
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:11 pm 
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Quote (JimmyGrill @ 14 2005 July,12:02)
My take on it is that formations may be declared intermingled after the retreat move.

Unnecessary special rule. The attackers can still firefight the drones. No problem.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tau Jump Packs Question
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:48 pm 
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What if they have gone beyond firefight range?

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asaura
 Post subject: Tau Jump Packs Question
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:12 pm 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 14 2005 July,17:48)
What if they have gone beyond firefight range?

Same as any assault where, after the charge moves, no enemy units are in range -- the assault just ends. I don't see a problem.
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nealhunt
 Post subject: Tau Jump Packs Question
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:12 pm 
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Doggone it.  I apparently hit the wrong button and deleted my post rather than sending it. :angry:

Didn't an early version of the Tau rules, when the retreat was a general army rule and not jet pack only, state that if no units were in 15cm the attack stalled?

I see that as in the same spirit as the experimental assault rules where if all attackers in 15cm are killed, the assault stalls.  Basically, I think I'd write something like this:

Note that if the Jet Pack unit retreats into or behind the ZoC of a separate non-intermingled unit, the attackers will not be able to enter that ZoC and therefore cannot engage in CC.

If after the assault the attacking formation is unable to get even one model within 15cm of a uni in the target formation, the attack stalls and the attacking formation is considered to have used its action for the turn.

I would probably let the attacking formation take its single move in a different direction.  This would sort of represent the "We're not going to be able to catch them... take cover over there" reaction.  But I might only allow them to move directly toward the intended target.

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Jaldon
 Post subject: Tau Jump Packs Question
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:39 am 
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The Gun Drones were in fact out of FF range of the assaulters, but the Warrior Cadre was in FF range of the assaulters, but not the target of the assault, and too far away front the Gun Drones to be considered 'intermingled'.

I admit the situation is real rare, it is the first time it has come up and we have been messing with the Tau for a good time now.

I think if the Experimental Assault rules were in effect I would declare the assault stalled, and require the assaulter to move toward his intended target.

Any Thoughts? It is going to come up again for sure, it is why I posted it, so we need to have a pateneted answer for it.

Jaldon

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asaura
 Post subject: Tau Jump Packs Question
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 7:49 am 
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I'm a bit surprised by the difficulties people seem to be having. In my view, both the printed rules and the experimental assault rules cover jet pack retreats with no problems, and we do not need any more special rules in addition to the regular jet pack rules (10 cm jump in any direction before charge move).

Let's first consider the case of the regular, printed assault rules. In these rules, it is quite possible to declare an assault, make a charge move (no direction requirements except when entering ZoC) and fail to get any target unit within 15 cm range. According to section 1.12.3, paragraph 2, of the rules:

1.12.3 Make Charge Move
A formation undertaking an engage action is allowed to
make one move (not a double distance move as is the
case in many sets of wargame rules, not least many Games
Workshop games), and then fights an assault against the
enemy formation that was chosen as the target of the
charge. This move is known as the charge move.

Make the move normally, as described in the movement
rules given previously. Once the move is complete, the
engaging formation must have at least one unit within
15cms of a unit from the target formation. If this is not
the case then the assault does not take place and the
action ends. This caveat aside, units from the charging
formation may move in any direction and do not have to
head towards the enemy.


So no problems here. You declare an Engage action. Tau jet packs away, you make a charge move, in any direction. If you get within 15 cm of your target, fine. If you can't reach 15 cm, the assault does not take place and the action ends. If you think you can't reach your target, feel free to make the charge move to any direction.

I don't quite understand why people talk about stalling and the experimental assault rules in this case. Stalling has to do with an already initiated assault ending abruptly, before supporting fire (changed section 1.12.5, paragraph 6, see
http://www.specialist-games.com/epic/fo ... IC_ID=5999). In the case of Tau jet packs jumping away as described above, no assault takes place. Therefore, no assault stalls.

I hope this clears it up. I suspect a lot of people are pre-measuring their Engage action moves and, for that reason, have basically ignored 1.12.3, paragraph 2.
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baronpiero
 Post subject: Tau Jump Packs Question
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:34 pm 
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Jimmygrill:
My take on it is that formations may be declared intermingled after the retreat move.

How I understand it when making a dull application of the rules, declaring many formations 'intermingled' happens before the activation roll, whereas 'jetpacks' are used between the activation roll and the attacker's move.

You should therefore make it clear in the 'jetpacks' rules that intermingle should be re-defined in some way, each time the jetpacks rule comes into play. And in this case I suggest that you come up with a wording that also covers the opposite case aswell:

Weird case#2: if intermingled formations are not within 5cm of each-other any more due to the 'jetpacks' rule being used, then it would be more logical that the attacker must re-define the target of the assault aswell.

It seems quite complicated to achieve though. ???
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asaura
 Post subject: Tau Jump Packs Question
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:38 pm 
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Quote (baronpiero @ 15 2005 July,20:34)
It seems quite complicated to achieve though. ???

... and, as such, sounds like fodder for the wastebasket of discarded ideas. Until someone produces a case where the existing rules cause problems, I fail to see why we would like to write clarifications or extra rules.
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baronpiero
 Post subject: Tau Jump Packs Question
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:45 pm 
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... and, as such, sounds like fodder for the wastebasket of discarded ideas. Until someone produces a case where the existing rules cause problems, I fail to see why we would like to write clarifications or extra rules.

That's my opinion too: it seems difficult and the worst case scenario seems to rarely happen.
But if possible in a simple way, it would be an improvement.
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Jaldon
 Post subject: Tau Jump Packs Question
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:50 am 
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Very rare indeed, we have been messing with the Tau list for a good long time, and this is the first instance it has come up.

Could be because I was judging a game between two relative newbies, and they get more excited as the game goes on and declare often before taking advantage of the pre-measure.

I believe Asura quotes cover the situation very well, and I am glad he posted them so I didn't have to hunt for them.

I still feel it was a situation that needed to be adressed.

Jaldon

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Tau Jump Packs Question
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:35 am 
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Perhaps a FAQ would do it?

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