Tactical Command
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Manta Questions
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=28427		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Andrew_NZ [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Manta Questions
Having finally built and deployed a Manta on the battlefield (table) I have a few more questions.

(1) Can the Manta sit over friendly troops. Given the popped up over terrain features there would be room.
The fact that they don't block line of sight give further confirmation. We assume they could in the last battle.

(2) Enemy troops cannot move within 5 cm ZoC unless they are moving to assault the Manta.

(3) Could the enemy units continue to move through underneath the Manta if they were assaulting?

(4) Alternately. When do the enemy units come to "base-to-base" contact with the Manta.
At the edge of the model, OR, at the edge of the base, OR, never, OR, 5 min discussion point?
Even though the Manta is popped up (hence forces fire fight) base-to-base contact could stop passengers disembarking
(ok 16 units in contact is a lot but there IS room!). "Base-to-base" contact also means that the Manta is the closest target.
A skimmer forcing fire fight still qualifies as being in "base-to-base".

(5) If a formation in a war-engine does not participate in an action by the war-engine AND it subsequently gets out as part of a counter charge,
can it subsequently activate in that turn? Would a Sustain Fire, Overwatch or other no-move actions by the war-engine make a difference?

Context: I am thinking of loading up Kroot into a Manta. Using them as a boosting force in engagements.
And wondering how that mixes with the rules wrinkles associated with the Manta (Support Craft, War-Engine).


Points I think I have clear:

Always popped up so can sit over any terrain features anywhere on the table.
Never pops down so never counts as in terrain.
Does get a -1 to hit (on both formations) if both target and shooter are equidistant from terrain.
Guidance suggests this should be "generously" applied so near equal rather than to a millimeter.
Does not block line of sight for anything.


Please feel free to move this query, if it should be placed in a more general forum.
Some of the questions are a bit more general than just about the Manta.
Author:  yme-loc [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manta Questions
Assume the Manta has a base (its flying base generally) and despite its support craft rule, this flying base works in the same way as the base of any war engine. So blocks movement directly over it and can't be left sitting on top of other models etc.

Once the war engine activates any transported units have effectively had their activation that turn.

If an enemy formation engaged the Manta and you dropped off the transported formation as part of the counter charge before having activated the Manta that turn then the rules are less clear, it might be worth asking directly in the rules forum. But I think in this case as the Manta had not yet taken an action the dropped off formation could make an activation that turn.
Author:  uvenlord [ Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manta Questions
I do not have the answers but where do you find the rule about not blocking LOS? Feels right but I cannot find it.

(2) (3) and (4) as you measure zone of control from the model and not from the base it gets really interesting with the big manta. I would say they can move up to the base so a little bit under the manta (if you use the flying base) So to get into "base to base" you need to touch the base if you are using one or the model if you are not using a base. Will be really tricky if you use a low "flying" base...
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Manta Questions
Quote:
(2) (3) and (4) as you measure zone of control from the model

Another thing I've seen metas differ on
Author:  uvenlord [ Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Manta Questions
jimmyzimms wrote:
Quote:
(2) (3) and (4) as you measure zone of control from the model

Another thing I've seen metas differ on
Well, the rules say:
"All units in Epic have a zone of control that extends 5cm in every direction from the model. Models mounted on a stand may measure the zone of control from any model on the stand"
I do not like the way the rules switch between measuring from base or the model but thats the way things are. And as long as there is no rules for bases other then infantry thats the way it will probably be... :(
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manta Questions
that's often completely ignored for those that use based model conventions. stand to stand edge (seems to be the UK dominate method IIRC) pretty much kills the model for advantage problems you expertly pointed out in the testing process thread (the image of that titan still makes me laugh). So let me ask, when my baneblade is modeled with that monster gun sticking to the right I get to have extra range when targeting formations that direction? after all the model extends farther that way and the RAW states that. Or perhaps local metas/conventions think that's silly and use conventions that they feel are keeping to the spirit of the game instead?

This is why JJ, while being good at designing, sometimes hit the bottle occasionally when playtesting, I think ;)

For those that come from games that are 100% base convention (BFG for example) this seems to feel pretty natural. That's why locally we play it that way. I should note we don't have Tau/Squats around here so never really an issue which admittedly can be wonky with support craft

It is in no way the only interpretation nor a better/correct one, just that my original point was these vary on metas.
Author:  uvenlord [ Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manta Questions
jimmyzimms wrote:
It is in no way the only interpretation nor a better/correct one, just that my original point was these vary on metas.
well I do not disagree with your "opinions" (or whatever ;) ). I'm not just sure I get what you mean by meta then? To me the rules is clear (but stupid) not like in the other thread where the rules is unclear and people play it differently. Guessing peoples houserules might be part of the "meta" and if so I'm with you :)
BTW our gaming group disagree on some things and if we do we play as the rules is written, so we actually measure from the tip of the baneblades barrel... It makes much more sense with the manta, it is much bigger then the base so it would be strange to measure all distances to the base and not to the model.
Also whats stopping the "model for advantage" when there is no limit on the size of the base? The same guy that places all of his marines in one corner could place his dreadnoughts on a 1' x 1' board :P

Anyway, we almost never have any arguments about this we just play fair and get on with the game.

It would be nice to know how other people play with support crafts as none of us really know. The rules is kind of blurry on some things...
Author:  jimmyzimms [ Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Manta Questions
That's one targeteable dreadnought!!! ;D
For the record, wasn't taking offense. Not sure if that came across correctly in this medium or not. :)

I've read somewhere here years ago about some group that used bigger bases for the support craft (actually a cutout pie plate they stuck under the stand to standardize size). Does seem to remove some of the fiddliness of the unit.

But like you, not a problem locally and yes it is douchewaffle to play like you're pointing out. Also good point on that being a dumb rule vs an unclear one. You're 100% right, that is better called house ruled vs meta perhaps (though in practice I guess there's a gradient [shrugs]).

Anyhoooss :sos
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