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Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9

 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:55 am 
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Links fixed.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:07 am 
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Matt, what's the role/function of the Riptide? It seems fairly underwhelming as a unit type. Just two weapons and a 2DC WE with a Deflector Shield....


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:13 am 
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Thanks for the feedback, I have attempted to not make this unit over-powered but think it does have a genuine role and justification for its points cost.

Like its 40K equivalent it is fast and resilient, survivable enough against non-Macro to operate closer to the enemy than most of the Tau army.

On the one hand you're right that it could look underwhelming; for example, 300pts spent on ion-cannon Hammerheads gets you twice (or more than twice) as many macro weapon shots. A riptide formation will outlast them against anything other than dedicated CC units (skimmers forcing FF > better armour), and I see having a survivable, fast unit as a real plus in army building.

For external balance, the formation pricing and stats are similar to Eldar Knights (less firepower than most, less CC ability, but more resilient) and when taken in a squad of 3 the role is similar to Warhound. It operates best in the midfield which is handy for setting up cross-fire, can often survive a FF assault, and I often have the Riptides across the line for Take And Hold in the 3rd turn.

Additionally as the ultimate Battlesuit, it can also be a place for a Supreme Commander upgrade, giving it another role (freeing the Crisis Suits to be off the board) in a formation such as this:
3x XV104 Riptide, Supreme Commander, 3 Shielded Missile Drones (475pts).
(That would put the SC in a unit with 6 DC and 3 AV wounds)

Try it, you might like it :D


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:22 am 
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I'm hoping to. Was just curious about its on-paper appearance as it doesn't seem to have an alpha-attack weapon load like the crisis suits for example.

Hopefully Onslaught Wave 8 will come sooner than later :)


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:13 am 
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Hi Matt

just saw that the "commander" upgrade is missing from the Crisis suits in the army list is this intended?


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Version 0.7: Tournament Test Phase
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:09 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
[] Crisis dropped back to FF5+ from FF4+

Some additional feedback after reading through the list more carefully. I suggest you lower the FF of the stealth suits back to FF5+ as well (they're 4+ in the stats pdf but 5+ in the approved list), to keep them in line with how you handled the crisis suits. Perhaps making Cadre Fireblade available to them instead?



Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
[] Shas’el Commander option removed

Why was the Shas'el option removed? Is not appropriate from the Vior'la fluff? Or was it because you didn't want to spam leader? Now that Cadre Fireblade don't have leader, then perhaps allowing the Shas'el option again is an alternative?


cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 12:52 am 
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The PDFs have been updated, please feel free to download the new version. Stealths should have been FF5+, thanks, and must now pay if they want an upgrade.
Commander is back as an option for Crisis.
The Shas'el option was removed when Cadre Fireblade had leader and hasn't been added back in to the list. If it is popular enough to warrant being an option alongside Fireblade it could be reintroduced.

The Moray is still in the list, but seems to have less player-support after recent discussions. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=26241 and may be removed.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:36 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
The Shas'el option was removed when Cadre Fireblade had leader and hasn't been added back in to the list. If it is popular enough to warrant being an option alongside Fireblade it could be reintroduced.

I thought a bit on this. It might be a good thing that it's not available because of thematic reasons, not having the option will probably see more cadre fireblade upgrades. I mean it's 25 pts so would compete with the Cadre Fireblade upgrade. If I have 25 spare points then I'd probably spend that on getting "Leader" and an extra shooting attack for my Fire Warrios rather than getting 4+ FF as I will try to shoot most of the time anyway.

A possibility is of course to raise the price of the Shas'el upgrade, but I'm not sure anyone would take it at 50pts. I wouldn't at least. A Shas'el can hardly compete with inspiring and fearless (on top of leader) granted by the ethereal for the same price.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:18 pm 
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There was an earlier version with the fireblade costing 50pts and offering leader as well as ff4+. I removed leader and lowered the cost because I didn't see it as worth taking - but I will admit I am notoriously stingy with upgrades and prefer more men. :)
What are your thoughts about the three options for integration:
Fireblade at 25, no leader option
Fireblade at 25, option of Leader at 25
Fireblade who is also leader at 50

(Note that some lists do it, but Tau don't currently have any costs in increments lower than 25pts, so there is no precedent in the list for 'something between 25 and 50').


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:36 am 
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The problem with Tau fireblade costing is that Drones are both undercosted and undergunned.

This stems from the most recent decrease in price to 2 for 25 instead of 2 for 50 and 4 for 75. I would suggest this to be revisited in Viorla if not in the main list. Point costs are, after all, a list-specific item.

To justify the difference, Gun drones could be given a single missile pod (representing a missile pod drone in the lot), or even a twin linked one, thereby increasing their range and, by way of consequence, their usefulness as suppression soakers for the battlesuits.

a 25 point costed fireblade with coordinated fire might be a valuable choice then.

The Shas'el is a different beast and entirely related on where you want the SC option to exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:12 am 
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Quote:
The problem with Tau fireblade costing is that Drones are both undercosted and undergunned.


Undercosted and Undergunned usually balance each other out (ie "it doesn't cost a lot because it isn't very good"). I assume you mean that this could be an issue because when a fireblade is added to a unit, all infantry in the unit are improved to FF4+, including the otherwise fairly mediocre gun drone.

Your suggestion is a decent idea, but there is already another check and balance against this improving a unit too much though, since I have followed a request from Yme-Loc to ensure that no unit can take more than 2 gun drones. Taking 4 or more is not possible in the current Vior'la list, so the Fireblade upgrade's impact on drones caps out at making 2 of them change from 5+ to 4+.

I expect what you're suggesting might look something like this:
Missile Drone Infantry 20cm ARM5+ CC6+ FF5+ Twin Missile Pods 45cm AP5+/AT6+ Tau Jet Packs
25pts each

Since that's the sort of thing Yme-Loc is trying to reserve for a future drone list, I think the cap on taking a maximum of 2 means the gun drone plus fireblade combo is pretty limited in impact and wouldn't need a new stat line to balance.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:53 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
There was an earlier version with the fireblade costing 50pts and offering leader as well as ff4+. I removed leader and lowered the cost because I didn't see it as worth taking - but I will admit I am notoriously stingy with upgrades and prefer more men. :)
What are your thoughts about the three options for integration:
Fireblade at 25, no leader option
Fireblade at 25, option of Leader at 25
Fireblade who is also leader at 50


As I have just recently become interested i this list, I don't know all previous versions. Have any earlier version had the fireblade character as a mandatory upgrade? (I mean the basic FW cadre costed at 250 pts and include the fireblade among the basic units.) If so, what was the reason for changing it?
It's an option that would still see the Shas'el (leader) upgrade as viable.

Of the above options I'm currently for number one (status quo).
Number 2 would probably see me always take leader over fireblade.
Number 3 is a possibility in my view. It would be nice, but probably to high cost. More units are in most cases better, like you pointed out, and I believe the upgrade wouldn't be able to compete with ethereal like I said in my last post. 37,5 pts and 62,5 of the ethereal would probably be good or maybe having it at 50 pts but raising the ethereal back to 75 pts. As a Tau player I can see why you wanted to lower the ethereal cost though, raising them back is an option that is lacking.

I'm not for the 37,5 (or 35/40) though.

Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
(Note that some lists do it, but Tau don't currently have any costs in increments lower than 25pts, so there is no precedent in the list for 'something between 25 and 50').


I don't think introducing upgrades at other pts costs than those evenly divided by 25 is a good idea. (The only one I think is worth considering is the half of 25, 12,5 increases, but thats a completely different debate and should be introduced among all lists and it wouldn't be aesthetically pleasing IMHO :D ) It would be the odd bird in the list and just cause problems.

All in all I think status quo is preferable, I will test the list soon and will try to evaluate the lack of leader.

Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Quote:
The problem with Tau fireblade costing is that Drones are both undercosted and undergunned.


Undercosted and Undergunned usually balance each other out (ie "it doesn't cost a lot because it isn't very good"). I assume you mean that this could be an issue because when a fireblade is added to a unit, all infantry in the unit are improved to FF4+, including the otherwise fairly mediocre gun drone.

On the drones subject I think a cost of 37,5 pts (for two) would be about right. 50 pts is in my view to much, but 25pts is rather cheap (and competes very well (to well?) with the 25pts fireblade). but again introducing odd points cost like 35/30/37,5/whatever is problematic.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 5:34 pm 
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Borka wrote:
Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
Quote:
The problem with Tau fireblade costing is that Drones are both undercosted and undergunned.


Undercosted and Undergunned usually balance each other out (ie "it doesn't cost a lot because it isn't very good"). I assume you mean that this could be an issue because when a fireblade is added to a unit, all infantry in the unit are improved to FF4+, including the otherwise fairly mediocre gun drone.

On the drones subject I think a cost of 37,5 pts (for two) would be about right. 50 pts is in my view to much, but 25pts is rather cheap (and competes very well (to well?) with the 25pts fireblade). but again introducing odd points cost like 35/30/37,5/whatever is problematic.


^this^

An alternative to 37,5 pt cost would be 50 pt. cost (as it was, and was recently suddenly changed for unexplained and undebated reasons in the 6.6 list), but with upgunned stats. This would be a much preferable solution, for many reasons, and would help the fireblade being picked as an upgrade as drones would stop competing for the same upgrade cost/slot.

I didn't see the problem you mention with Fireblade/drones with regards to the increasing FF, as the fireblade did not increase the FF score of drones last time I looked. Have you changed it in this version?

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 6:15 pm 
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Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
There was an earlier version with the fireblade costing 50pts and offering leader as well as ff4+. I removed leader and lowered the cost because I didn't see it as worth taking - but I will admit I am notoriously stingy with upgrades and prefer more men. :)
What are your thoughts about the three options for integration:
Fireblade at 25, no leader option
Fireblade at 25, option of Leader at 25
Fireblade who is also leader at 50

I thought about two other options during the holidays.

1) If you'd like to push the elite-FW-theme of the Vior'la more.
Make the Cadre Fireblade upgrade 50pts and have it give the formation 1+ initiative in addition to the 4+ FF.

It would of course be a big change. It could perhaps even be argued that it should push the list back to experimental.


2) Make the Cadre Fireblade a free upgrade like the commissar (perhaps 1 per full 1000 pts?).

You previously described this (FF4+ being free) as having been desired by players in the discussion.
Matt-Shadowlord wrote:
So the solution in the latest version is 25pts for FF4+ without leader or coordinated fire. It's a simple, single-purpose upgrade option with no secondary effect that needs pricing in, and from the comments on the forum imagine a lot of Tau players would rather FF4+ was free but would consider taking it at that price point.


I'm not suggesting it, I'm just brainstorming ideas. Seems unreasonable to me to get the upgrade for free. Should probably be paid for.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:45 pm 
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Quote:
1) If you'd like to push the elite-FW-theme of the Vior'la more.
Make the Cadre Fireblade upgrade 50pts and have it give the formation 1+ initiative in addition to the 4+ FF.
2) Make the Cadre Fireblade a free upgrade like the commissar (perhaps 1 per full 1000 pts?).


Interesting suggestions. The first would make the Tau version of Black Guardians (although at least you'd pay points for it). That would be a pretty big change to make at this stage though, I know BG are seen as a significant advantage for the Ulthwe list. Other opinions on this suggestion are welcome.

The second would be like an Imperial Guard upgrade, the problem being that if it is free it potentially makes the army list better than the 3rd Phase Expansion list (rather than different from it). So I'd probably want to build the cost in elsewhere, which means paying for it in some other way, so you might as well just actually pay for it.


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