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Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.9

 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:29 am 
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fredmans wrote:
I have uploaded the pictures, and will try to write the battle report tonight or the night after. I have faced regular Tau before, and can really only comment on the Vior'la army Borka used, but it feels like it has the potential to be a more aggressive Tau list.
Also, by putting the SC in a Riptide suit, Crisis suits can be used as an assault formation, rather than being a very cautious body guard.


Thanks for the feedback Fredmans. Glad to hear it's working as a more aggressively orientated version of Tau. Sounds good to me. 8)

Borka wrote:
fredmans wrote:
stood out a little was how fast the Riptides were. I figure the movement is based on Jump Infantry, making them Jump War Engines, but War Engine usually comes with a little shift towards slow. Compare, for instance, Eldar. All their AV skimmers have 35 cm movement, their skimmer WEs have 25 cm. IG tanks have 20 cm move, Super-heavies 15 cm.


Yeah we discussed that when we played. I forgot to address it in my previous post. It does seem odd that they are so fast compared to the crisis suits that are smaller and also jump pack elite suits. Or is there fluff or 40k rules that suggest they should be faster? I looked at the 40k codex but couldn't seem to find anything indicating or justifying that, I'm not that good with 40k rules though.


Yes the Riptide in 40k is extremely fast, much faster than the actual model looks and it's frequently used as an objective contestor or line breaker in the last turn.

Riptide - Jet pack Monstrous Creature
[] Jet pack units move like jump infantry, but can also do a thrust move of 2D6" in the assault phase, even if they have shot or run.
[] The Riptide has an additional ability called Boost which gives it a 4D6 thrust move in assault phase.

For comparison, in 40K a Leman Russ can move a maximum of 6" plus D6 (average 9.5") per turn if it doesn't shoot.
A Hammerhead can move 6" plus 6" (12") if it only fires snap shots (hits on 6+).
Bikes can move up to 12" and lose the chance to shoot or charge to turbo 12" more.
A Riptide in 40K can move a maximum of 6" plus 4D6 (average of 20") even if it does shoot.

The unit's balance in Epic is top priority, so the speed could be changed for balance reasons, but from the point of view of the model's background it is about the fastest ground unit in the Tau army.
Even pirahna's have to give up their chance to shoot to move "Flat Out" and catch up.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:04 pm 
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I know you are very familiar with 40K, but I am generally opposed to relying too much upon it, especially its quirky movement rules. I think just as much attention needs to be given to the history of Epic evolution. I am a little concerned that the current riptide formation could be the single warhound of this new tau list. Maybe that is what you are aiming for?

i played against one formation, and it was ok, but have you or anyone else spammed them? They have no significant weakness as of now. The biggest weakness is being engaged, but they are durable, tau are mobile to enough to set up good support, and except against perhaps terminators, casualties should be low. Short range mitigated by speed and jetpack. mw attacks. thick rear armour, dc2 and 5+invulnerable. shield drones for bm resistance. Three or four formations of these would still give plenty of activations and be very hard to defend against due to multiple threats.

Edit: their weakness would be exposure to MW and TK if used aggressively, but that is not a Riptide exclusive.

Just curious, what is the role of riptides in the list. You said earlier: linebreakers, objective grabbers. I can add good shooting. that makes them similar to war hounds, which in other lists are restricted and competes with air and air assault capabilities.

Edit: I've reread the whole development thread and gather that most comments approve of current stats and cost. I can only add that these are excellent crossfire claimers, add the markerlight boost to a retained hammerhead formation and they can really annihilate formations together.

final edit: Sun sharks and riptides add elements that tau really lacks in the original list, a fast durable crossfire claimer with good shooting to boost and barrages. Or in other words, they might add more to the army's performance than their individual formation's points cost.

i might worry a bit too much, but these matters should really be brought to discussion in order to get the list to approved.

/fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:15 am 
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Quote:
I am a little concerned that the current riptide formation could be the single warhound of this new tau list. i played against one formation, and it was ok, but have you or anyone else spammed them?
...Just curious, what is the role of riptides in the list. You said earlier: linebreakers, objective grabbers. I can add good shooting. that makes them similar to war hounds, which in other lists are restricted and competes with air and air assault capabilities.


Yes I see them as having a role somewhat similar to WH, although a lot less able to deal with assaults (esp CC) due to being vulnerable to hackdown and casualties when broken.
I had a try at spamming them in a game, using 3 formations. They start at 300, (usually 375 with drones) and 475 with drones and commander so that was 1,225 for 3 formations of Riptides which is about as high as I could push it without totally gutting the list since they aren't Core. The list was good but really weak in AA and dropped to 9 activations without having the usual TK support of an AX10, so it's risky vs many opponents.
The cost and the need for Tau to both take Core units and use some Support for markerlight formations etc means they aren't likely to cause the "single warhound" problem.

Regarding speed, they're likely to lose Jetpack. It's a nice analogue of the 40K unit's rules but it may be too much of a good thing.

Quote:
Edit: I've reread the whole development thread and gather that most comments approve of current stats and cost. I can only add that these are excellent crossfire claimers, add the markerlight boost to a retained hammerhead formation and they can really annihilate formations together.


They've gone through a number of iterations and people seem pretty happy with them, but feedback is always welcome.

Quote:
final edit: Sun sharks and riptides add elements that tau really lacks in the original list, a fast durable crossfire claimer with good shooting to boost and barrages. Or in other words, they might add more to the army's performance than their individual formation's points cost.


Sunshark bombers do indeed fill a gap, and are going up by 25pts in the next revision.

Thanks Fredmans, that's quality feedback.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:22 am 
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Which units can you add commanders to? The list is a bit contradictory

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:14 pm 
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The next update will have clearer wording regarding the commander upgrade by making it in to one line:
Commander (Max One Per Army) Add one Shas’o Commander to a Fire Warrior unit, Crisis Unit or XV014 Riptide unit. 100pts


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 12:49 pm 
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Update: The latest Vior'la Tau list will be finalised and posted by Monday.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 10:00 am 
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Current version available for Download: Developmental (Version 1.1)
Updated May 18 2014
Files on first page of this thread.

Change log:
[] Sunshark bomber price increased to 200 (from 175)
[] Railgun gains "Armour Penetrator - A Non-infantry unit with Reinforced Armour that is hit by an Armour Penetrator weapon is not allowed to re-roll its saving throw."
[] Hammerhead with Railgun price increased from 200 for 4 to 225 for 4.
[] Orca Dropship initiative lowered back to 2+
[] Riptides lose Jet Pack rule
[] Tigershark AX-1-0 changed to 3 Seeker missiles to match Tau 6.7

The Armour Penetrator rule has been used in a decent number of games now, and has had universally good feedback, including from opponents fielding reinforced armour vehicles. I'll try to get a battle report demonstrating it up soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2014 3:58 pm 
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All looks good.

The not lance rule is quite interesting and I have come around to this format for the Hammerhead in recent times. I will probably implement a version 6.71 of the Third Phase list including this rule.

The AX-1-0 should have 2 Seeker missiles, it increased from 1 to 2 in the recent changes. Also the Manta went from 2 to 3 Seeker missiles.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:49 am 
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yme-loc wrote:
All looks good.
The not lance rule is quite interesting and I have come around to this format for the Hammerhead in recent times. I will probably implement a version 6.71 of the Third Phase list including this rule.


Great. I've used it in a number of games and play tests now, and it does seem to work and make the hammerheads feel like a more accurate representation.

yme-loc wrote:
The AX-1-0 should have 2 Seeker missiles, it increased from 1 to 2 in the recent changes. Also the Manta went from 2 to 3 Seeker missiles.


Thanks, I will update those to match.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:03 am 
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I suppose I should chime in after having a few games with the list as well. Overall I think it works well the only unit I feel is a little wonky is the Riptides.

I love Riptides as the unit of choice to add the Shas'O. I have a couple of issues with them though. I think their move should be reduced to 25cm from 30cm and add Tau Jet Packs. Its cuts their threat range down by 10cm but gives them the option of the 10cm move after shooting giving the formation the same overall move at the end of the turn.

They are a nice durable unit that I think is just a touch too quick hence the suggestion above.

I have been runing a pair of Morays and have found them to be a worthwhile addition to the any force I have built and for whatever reason they have always been ignored by my opponents in favour of other targets.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:31 am 
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Thanks for the feedback osoi, glad you've been enjoying the list.

Riptides did have the Jetpack rule, and then they lost it in the Mon May 19, 2014 changes in order to slow the unit down. I'll have a look at the implications of reducing the unit's speed and adding jetpack back in.

It's not a bad idea (riptides are currently very fast), but I am not sure it's that much of a disadvantage. The unit would have a slightly higher potential move when single moving (25cm+10 instead of 30cm), and the same potential move when doubling (25+25+10 instead of 60cm), although as you said it would reduce the threat range somewhat because only the standard movement can be performed before the unit shoots, and the jetpack move can't add to assault range.

It's an idea worth testing.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:08 am 
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One other thing that came to me when playing the standard Tau list on the weekend compared to the Viorla is That it would be nice to see the option for bonding being available on the Fire Warriors still. It uses up an upgrade choice and I cant see why the Viorla Tau wouldnt have lots of teams of blood brothers in it.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:05 am 
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osoi wrote:
I love Riptides as the unit of choice to add the Shas'O. I have a couple of issues with them though. I think their move should be reduced to 25cm from 30cm and add Tau Jet Packs. Its cuts their threat range down by 10cm but gives them the option of the 10cm move after shooting giving the formation the same overall move at the end of the turn.


It's in!
I ran the riptides like that in a game vs Onyx, and found it had a larger impact than expected. The movement being reduced to 25cm meant that in turn 1 riptides had to double rather than single move in order to get their shots off, and on turn 3 a riptide was the crucial 5cm out of being able to make it to the enemy blitz. Those are not trivial effects.

At the same time, having the 10cm jetpack move meant the riptides were able to jump behind some terrain after shooting, forcing the enemy to move forward to shoot them rather than just stand still and sustain.

So it's a mix of positives and negatives, but I really liked it firstly because the more complex moves made the units more interesting to play with, and secondly because the similarity in movement rules makes them feel closer to being super-mega-hyper-Crisis Suits.

The speed reduction and jetpack addition will be in the new update soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:09 am 
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I like the Riptides jetpack+slower too.

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 Post subject: Re: Vior'la Tau - Developmental V1.0
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 4:54 pm 
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A few questions, if I may? (o:
The Crisis suit formation doesn't have the Commander upgrade, yet the commander upgrade Specifically mentions it.
I guess it's simply missing in the Crisis suit upgrades list?

The Pathfinder Group:
The options you want to create are:
4 Pathfinder units and 2 Devilfishes at 200pts
6 Pathfinder units at 200pts
6 Pathfinder units and 3 Devilfishes at 300pts
NOT
4 Pathfinder units and 5 Devilfishes at 300pts
all with optional gun drones

Correct?

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