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AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=19093		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  yme-loc [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
Ok, there are a number of reasons I personally think this is a good idea. In of themselves they may be fairly minor and you may even disagree that they apply or are true, but I will post them anyway so you get an idea of why I am thinking of the change in stats and cost.

Firstly to be clear - I think the AX-1-0's are a very good choice, yes there are games when they do nothing, when you get unlucky or your opponent brings so much AA they shut the air game down to a degree. But for anygame like that in my experience there is one game when they perform very solidly and another game where they virtually win it by themselves.

So with that in mind I considered just a straight increase in cost to 375pts for the formation, this meant you really had to think about including them and for some people it would be just a step too far in terms of cost. Now if there were no other options that would be a bad thing, but the new stats for the Manta make it a very good choice and a viable alternative. Or there is even the Hero space ship which is a very good space craft with 2 pin points and planetfalling capabilities, which at 200pts allows you to go for some high activation style armies without loosing TK attacks altogether.

I dont want every Tau tournament list to feel like it has to take the AX-1-0 as firstly thats a little dull, secondly its likely to have a big effect on a local air meta and force an escallation in what AA assets people take, which is not in my opinion a good thing.

Another hope I had is if the basic Tigershark is 200pts and the AX-1-0 is 375pts then at least some consideration should go into the basic Tigershark (or it might if Drones were good), because effectively you can get the basic Tigershark + Drones for less than the AX-1-0 or you can get the basic Tigershark and another Markerlight formation for the same cost. Combined with a Hero this allows a different high activation, not quite so worried about protecting air assets style of game.

Another minor point was at 375pts it prevents taking a Manta and AX-1-0's in the same 3000pts list, although they are available together in larger games.

Now people have got a little focused on the addition of the seeker missile but its really the points increase that is the thing that is important in my opinion, I just thought if it was going up in price the addition of an AT6+ guided missile wouldnt matter much and would be a tiny little boost that fit the background.

Now I am sure there are people who disagree with me and who have tried the AX-1-0 and found it rubbish, if so tell me about it, make me realise that I am mistaken in my fears for it.
Author:  frogbear [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
*sets up a folding chair with a bar fridge next to him and prepares himself to view the show*
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
The problem with non-WE aircraft, is there's a VERY heavy metagame component as to their usefulness. If ground based AA is easy to come by, or just heavily prevalent, they can be next to useless. But if it's not, they can be devastating. I've played several games with just token AA, accepting my opponent will have free reign, hoping to dominate on the ground if they've heavily invested in air. It's worked as often as not, but in those circumstances if my opponent had been playing AX10's, War Engines would have been smashed.

There's also a playstyle component. If you're too aggressive with AX10's, you'll lose them for little effect. Even though it looks like a sledgehammer, hits like a sledgehammer, an AX10 is at least IMO, played like a fencing blade. Timing and placement more important than brute strength.

I'm not a frequent Tau player, but when I do, AX10's are always on the short list. Often they're included, but sometimes not, and sometimes two pairs. Anyways, for my money, I have no problem with the cost/weaponry increase. I'm not sure it's entirely necessary, but I can see it justified, and the increase is unlikely to be a factor in my selection of them in the future. I still think they're a good buy.

Morgan Vening
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
With you all the way. As well as a more difficult choice it does as you point out stop you going all TK tastic with a Manta as well, also stops you getting 2 a-10's and 2 air activations (whether or not that is good, I've no idea).

The seeker is neither here nor there really, I guess it s a neat thing to have. Hell I would stick it on the normal tigershark for nothing. Here its a way to 'justify' the increae in cost.

All in all its a matter of a few % for what is, for me, a night compulsory formation (unless you want a hero/manta combo instead of course).

As for the effect on air meta, I think it makes 2 flights of tbolts for marines and a flight of nightwings pretty compulsory tourney wise. Guard just get a bit shafted as the gun with 45cm range outranges hydra and you can get a strike in on the SHT's before teh thunderbolts go on cap.

Saying that the Imperium often is a bit stuffed when facing these things. The Guard have tbolts who can't fly through the excellent defensive A the Tau have, the marines tend to like landing their WE aircraft near the enemy which a-10 and Tau wise is the worse place to be!
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
TBH I see little point in putting my arguments forward again as I seem to be in the minority.
Author:  Onyx [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
Why is it a problem to have a Manta and an AX-1-0 in the same 3000pt list?
Why should they be available together in a larger game but not the standard points game?

Considering I'd basically given up on using them at 350pts, there's no chance I will consider them at 375pts. I've lost games because the AX-1-0 failed to activate. At least with a Shadowsword, it can take a hold action if it fails to activate. 375pts of TK weapons that doesn't even turn up on a failed activation is frustrating to say the least.
They will be great the first time an opponent faces them and then after that they will be a pointless addition (I've seen this with every opponent I've faced using Eldar, Marines and Guard).

For what it's worth, I'm not in favour of this change.

I also wonder why people that used to complain about the 5 Aces air formations are in favour of the Tigershark being reduced to 200pts. Will 5 Tigershark squadrons lead to a balanced game?
Author:  KivArn [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
5 Tigersharks... now there's a thought ;)

Similarly to Onyx and Dobsy I'm not in favour of this change. I can understand some of the reasoning behind it, but I don't see it as particularly needed. It is quite a fragile formation and can all to easily become supressed. Unlike any ground formations this means that nothing happens and you could lose you TK for the entire game.

The standard tigershark (well gun drones and how they are handled) are in much greater need of attention than this. It's already a question as to take them or not, especially with the change to Mantas. (And Manta + AX in a 3k game would mean all AA is on the ground... i like at least some of mine flying... :D )
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
I'm on the edge on this one but with the Tau list generally performing very well I'm willing to see it tested.

Onyx: I thought you'd given up playing the 6.x list six months ago?
Author:  frogbear [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
KivArn wrote:
It is quite a fragile formation and can all to easily become supressed. Unlike any ground formations this means that nothing happens and you could lose you TK for the entire game.


*presses PAUSE on the remote and seeks clarrification*

KivArn: Are you stating that the AX-1-0 becomes suppressed?
Author:  KivArn [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
Suppressed as in get to stay at home in the aircraft hangers because they failed their activation due to picking up blast markers quite easily ;) It's early in the morning and I can't think of the right word xD

EDIT: ...apparently there is no right word... but i'm not meaning that they get suppressed like normal ground units... it's all ok :D
The 'suppressed for the entire game' bit was a bit of an exaggeration, but you could quite easily use them turn 1, get 'suppressed' and fail turn 2, Normally fail turn three (1 in 6 isn't that uncommon...) and have the game finish. This would be a bit unlucky though. However having them turn up only on odd turns is plausible.
Author:  frogbear [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
There is also the ability to Stand Down in Turn 1 to burn an activation and then use them in Turn 2 to pin-point a devastating attack.

It's my view that they do not have to be active every turn and could be used to hit something hard that is struggling rather than being the back end support weapon that they seem to be being used as.

At 375 points, it is not a crucial thing to lose a turn on - hell I have 800 point titans who spend a round or two running up a table just to get into the thick of things for turn 3. Different I know, however the comparrison to points is what is important here.

*suddenly feels as if has been drawn into a discussion he would rather watch from a distance*

Continue

*presses PLAY on the remote*
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
To be honest the 25 points increase isn't enough to make a unit impossible to take from being fairly common. The biggest impact is in list design, withness the warhound.

As to the risk of not activating, with 45cm range it can be a very cautious unit, but I would see a SC as a compulsory addition.

10 tigersharks in 5 lots of 2? I would actualy say you are better off with 6 squadrons of barracuda, or a mix of 'cudas and orca. The tigershark currently doesn't have much punch over the barracuda and the latter of course is a fighter. This is of course moving off topic somewhat!
Author:  EpicBattleBaggz [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
As I am late to this conversation, I see 375 became the normal cost.

Not trying to bait anyone, but as for 5 formations of TS, I GOTTA ask. Has anyone tried this before?

1) Did it work or did if crash and burn? (pun intended)
2) How fast did you get tossed on your keester from the tournament after attempting thus said formations?
3) Is this kind of thought frowned upon or looked as unsporting in a tournament setting?

NOT saying I would do this, but it looks like you could possibly pull it off with Tau.
Author:  zombocom [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
What if they were only available as singles?
Author:  asdepicas [ Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: AX-1-0 Potential Points Increase
i find the increase in points fair, its true that not activating them can be devastating to tau player, but having tk with infinite reach and no need of LS is worth the risk, also, if you are going to depend on them on turn 3, try not risking them (or even not activating them) on turn 2.
in my opinion (sold my tau army time ago in favour of necrons but play against them often) the main issue is that as yme-loc said, it has too much effect on local meta. being nearly auto-include makes people fear them at tournaments so people tend to mass AA if there are tau players around, and that makes other faction´s aircraft nearly unplayable
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