Tactical Command
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Drones
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=19092		 Page 1 of 6
Author:  yme-loc [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Drones
OK here is a post just on an off chance someone can come up with some brilliant way of making these interesting - that isn't disposable and doesnt cause major balance issues for the rest of the list (all a bit of a long shot, I know), please post it bellow if you have a brain storm.

My personal thoughts on the Drones are as follows - I actually think they are ok for their cost, there is just a fundamental problem. At 150pts for a formation (even if objectively it looks fine for their abilities on paper), they are basically competing against all the marker light support formations and you will always go for the recon or pathfinders even if it means finding that 25-50pts from somewhere.

As an upgrade again they are OK at least for Crisis, but upgrading means less points to spend on another formation, so any upgrades have to be really worth it - such as the skyray. So although its conceivable the odd 25pts left over may be spent on a drone (although more likely on a Bonded team) its not going to be common.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Drones
Well they should be armed with TWIN Pulse Carbines. Thats what the model is armed with, thats what they have in Wh40k. Thats AP4+ Disrupt in Epic and would enable them to do what they are designed for: Pinning down the enemy until the main forces arrive.
Author:  zombocom [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Drones
BlackLegion wrote:
Well they should be armed with TWIN Pulse Carbines. Thats what the model is armed with, thats what they have in Wh40k. Thats AP4+ Disrupt in Epic and would enable them to do what they are designed for: Pinning down the enemy until the main forces arrive.


That change has already been made; it's in the latest version.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Drones
Dammit i saved the new list on in the wrong folder.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Drones
Without some sort of "does not generate BM's when killed" they're not all that great in the context of the army.

Maybe make 'em faster?
That'd help enable that "Use them to get Crossfire" concept.

You could get a free formation of them any time you take a Tigershark Squadron?

I suggested the introduction of Heavy Gun Drones during the "E series". Heavy Gun Drone units would have markerlights, and could be part of the independent Drone formation by default.

Uhm.

Maybe make them part of some formations' base unit set, thereby forcing people to take them? :-)
Author:  BlackLegion [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Drones
OK other idea: Make the Gun Drone formation cheaper if it is transported in Tigersharks.
Tiger Shark Squadron----- 2 Tiger Sharks ---------------------------225pts
--------------------------(may transport one Gun Drone formation) ---(+100pts)
Author:  GlynG [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Drones
BlackLegion wrote:
OK other idea: Make the Gun Drone formation cheaper if it is transported in Tigersharks.
Tiger Shark Squadron----- 2 Tiger Sharks ---------------------------225pts
--------------------------(may transport one Gun Drone formation) ---(+100pts)
I like this idea! Makes the standard Tigershark worth using too - solving two problems in one with a nice synergy.

Alternatively perhaps a drop to 125pts and 0-1 per core formation could be a possibility? Though maybe that would make them a too cheap.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Drones
Drones. Indeed. The days of 75 points for 4 are hopefully gone :)

Fundementally they simply aren't that good. Tau need markerlights. Markerlight formations cost similar to drones. No contest.

Even non ml formations come out on top.

Take air assault - lets pack some Kroot into an Orca, cheaper, hold ground, more punch initially.
on the ground its Piranha or drones - here the Piranha outclass them in nearly every practical way.

The options above really sum it up unless someone is very innovative.

You could give them scout and make them an alternative to recon and pathfinders. But again, why not have markerlights.

You could mix them with heavy drones and make them an alternative markerlight formation. However I'd hate to see the upgrade become the stard way of getting ml's.

Or finally you could remove the formation from the list and add it in with the air. Here it would be artificially cheap to account for the fact it is using up air allocation and costed to be competitive with orca plus load outs. The overall cost of this deployment is then assessed.

of course people could get them and field them ont he ground, but as their is only going to be 1? in this set up is that a bad thing?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Drones
Drones giving no BM's when destroyed would at least make them desirable as an upgrade. I'm curious as to why it's ruled out.
Author:  Onyx [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Drones
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Without some sort of "does not generate BM's when killed" they're not all that great in the context of the army.


Quote:
Drones giving no BM's when destroyed would at least make them desirable as an upgrade. I'm curious as to why it's ruled out.


Quoted for truth.

As an upgrade, they are a liability to the formation as a whole (as the formation will usually have a better armour save than the Drones).

As a formation on their own, Drones are only really good for Crossfire which is good but not as good as the other potential formations, in that price range.
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Drones
I wouldn't mind seeing a form of Grot-like transport rule, where an Orca, or a Devilfish formations can fit extra Gun Drone formations in addition to any 'standard troop' slots.

My biggest issue with even considering them, is that Mechanised Fire Warriors, and Pathfinders, were both slowed down by the inclusion of Gun Drones, and Foot Fire Warriors were often better served buying the extra Fire Warriors upgrade. The Battlesuits had issues of their own, but this was the biggest problem I had with them.

Morgan Vening
Author:  KivArn [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Drones
Possibly not the most favourable solution, but Dropping them from the list completely and incorporating them into the Tigersharks profile would be one of my choices.

The gun drones are already said to be counted within units and their profiles reflect it, i don't really see the need to have them as a stand alone unit (other than the Tigershark issue)

However I do like the option of a "free" unit of gundrones with each tigershark. so something like 300points for Tigersharks, including a unit of gundrones.

Tim
Author:  BlackLegion [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Drones
How about this?

It would be one unit of Gun Drones per TWO Devilfishes. Each Devilfish is armed with two Gun Drones but a Gun Drone Swarm has a minimum strength of 4 Gun Drones. Yes the two Gun Drones are treated as a separate formation of disembarked from the Devilfish but two models per base would be something between Infantry and Light Vehicle in Epic which isn't possible.
You could make it so: As Devilfishes are already bought in even numbers you would get a unit of gun Drones for every pair of Devilfishes automatically. Just add "and one aditional Gun Drone unit) to the transport capacity of the Devilfish and remove the "& Gun Drones" from the Devilfishs Burst Cannon. Perhabs also add a note that the Gun Drones can always fire even if embarked?

But this isn't limited to the Devilfish. The Hammerhead and Skyray all have the option to have 2 Gun Drones as secondary armament (replacing the Smart Missile System those are currently armed with).

This makes Gun Drones useful for formations.
Author:  Onyx [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Drones
BlackLegion wrote:
How about this?

It would be one unit of Gun Drones per TWO Devilfishes. Each Devilfish is armed with two Gun Drones but a Gun Drone Swarm has a minimum strength of 4 Gun Drones. Yes the two Gun Drones are treated as a separate formation of disembarked from the Devilfish but two models per base would be something between Infantry and Light Vehicle in Epic which isn't possible.
You could make it so: As Devilfishes are already bought in even numbers you would get a unit of gun Drones for every pair of Devilfishes automatically. Just add "and one aditional Gun Drone unit) to the transport capacity of the Devilfish and remove the "& Gun Drones" from the Devilfishs Burst Cannon. Perhabs also add a note that the Gun Drones can always fire even if embarked?

But this isn't limited to the Devilfish. The Hammerhead and Skyray all have the option to have 2 Gun Drones as secondary armament (replacing the Smart Missile System those are currently armed with).

This makes Gun Drones useful for formations.

As you've mentioned, Gun drones are already considered part of a Devilfish and they are included in the stats. I don't see any reason to change this.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Drones
How about we just include them as they are and let people make their own decision whether to take them or not, instead of always having to have a "super-elite-tournament-wizard" reason to take them vs other troop types...? Just because they might represent the same effect on a board than another troop type, or they have less than super stats doesn't mean they won't be used by someone. Not every unit in this game has to be taken by every ... single ... player. The tourney wizzes might dislike them but there's probably a hundred people out there who might like to use them purely because they're iconic.

Let people use them as a points filler upgrade (e.g I only have 4 units so a 2-unit upgrade would be nice to fill a gap). Let people take whole formations, even if they do the same job as something else. Give them a choice....

It can't always be about the "optimal design" or "ultra-competitive play".
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