I agree. I usually thread Epic units as full-strength Wh40k squads and distribute the models evenly on the bases.
Well only 2 shots on a Heavy X weapon wouldn't generate an AP stat in the WhES but it is only a guidline
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Pathfinders |
I have a concern about Pathfinders. I raised this before in a thread, but the thread quickly spiralled off into other areas of debate, so here's my concern again. Problem: They're not unique enough for my taste. Proposed solultion : Change Rail Rifle from AP4+ Disrupt to AP5+ Sniper. Rail Rifles are supposed to be Sniper Rifle type weapons anyway. That'll make the formation more unique-feeling. Likely points increase required. Currently they're just better Fire Warriors, which doesn't really feel characterful to me. Concerns have been raised that if you bought 3-4 Pathfinder formations you would be quite likely to be able to kill the enemy SC in the first few orders (If you won the first order of the turn, and if the enemy SC was an Inf unit in the open)... my answer to that is that most armies could do that if they invested in 750+pts of Sniper units! |
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| Author: | yme-loc [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pathfinders |
I agree the Pathfinders are effectively just super fire warriors currently which does seem a bit strange, the Tau list is very points sensitive though so I would prefer to keep the cost of the formation at 175points if possible (other possible changes are Rail Rifles go to AP5+ Disrupt or AP6+ Sniper etc) Would like to hear other peoples ideas on the formation. |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pathfinders |
Curiously the Rail Rifle put in the WhES gives it 30cm AT6+ Disrupt It has a high Strength (6) but only one single shot. |
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| Author: | yme-loc [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 10:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pathfinders |
Indeed AT6+ disrupt for a rail rifle is also reasonable, could also assume a pathfinder squad has 3 with pulse carbines and 2 with rail rifles - I think in 40K now you can have as many as 3 rail rifles in a 4 man squad, if it was 2 rail rifles lumped together under the weapon name rail rifles AP6+/AT6+ disrupt would also be a reasonable stat. So current suggestions and possibilities AP5+ Sniper (might require a points increase) AP6+ Sniper AP5+ Disrupt and AP6+/AT6+ Disrupt AT6+ Disrupt |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pathfinders |
Yep. The combined shots of 3 Rail Rifles gives 3 shots which creates an AP stat in the WhES. A Pathfinder unitinEpic with 3 Rail Rifles would have a single AP5+/AT6+ Disrupt shot. Other posibility could be a single AP6+/AT7+ Sniper shot or even a single AP6+/AT7+ Sniper, Disrupt shot. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pathfinders |
I would assume 2 Rail Rifles, 2 Carbines, and one Shield Drone, per unit. :-P |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pathfinders |
I agree. I usually thread Epic units as full-strength Wh40k squads and distribute the models evenly on the bases. Well only 2 shots on a Heavy X weapon wouldn't generate an AP stat in the WhES but it is only a guidline
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pathfinders |
Currently Rail Rifles are AP4+ Disrupt. Would AP5+ Sniper actually require a points change? |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pathfinders |
Hmm at least at close range (15cm) they then would have better firepower than Eldar Rangers and because of Devilfishes much greater mobility. |
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| Author: | yme-loc [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pathfinders |
Evil and Chaos wrote: Currently Rail Rifles are AP4+ Disrupt. Would AP5+ Sniper actually require a points change? Yes probably would, Sniper is a very powerful ability just for the -1 armour save (-2 in an army that can crossfire so easily), let alone picking off all those Chaos lords, eldar exarchs and the occasional supreme commander. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pathfinders |
Ok, but more than a 25pt price increase? They're unlikely to get more than 1 Sniper hit per activation, and will need to be within 30cm to do it... |
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| Author: | yme-loc [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pathfinders |
Evil and Chaos wrote: Ok, but more than a 25pt price increase? Probably not, and dont get me wrong I am not saying its not viable or that I wont go that route. I am just a little wary of it - even 25pts changes to these support formations can have quite big impacts. |
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| Author: | The_Real_Chris [ Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pathfinders |
I concur they are current super firewarriors (oh I remember the days when I took them instead of firewarriors  ).However I also concur over the points. I personally want the _upgrade_ cost to be competitive with the omnipresent skyray as they make for a different way of getting ML into those mech formations. AP5+ sniper is fairly nasty - that's 1/2 a hit considering those markerlights which their stats may as well factor in more than other Tau infantry! Some sort of AP/AT disrupt weapon is probably more fun, start at 5/6 and see if it needs to go up? |
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| Author: | professorcurly [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pathfinders |
I still say that they would be better served/more thematic if you took their guns away. The point of Pathfinders is not to engage the enemy directly, ever. They are a small unit of lightly armed troops, and according to Tau doctrine are deployed ahead of the main army. They are supposed to pull the army forward, advancing and marking targets for the advancing troops to destroy. Being bogged down in constant firefights is not what they are all about. Rail Rifles as a Sniper upgrade. I understand that the increased firepower is part of the design method of the army, but this is one place that I don't believe it is appropriate. That is my position on the matter, anyway. |
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| Author: | yme-loc [ Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pathfinders |
professorcurly wrote: I still say that they would be better served/more thematic if you took their guns away. The point of Pathfinders is not to engage the enemy directly, ever. They are a small unit of lightly armed troops, and according to Tau doctrine are deployed ahead of the main army. They are supposed to pull the army forward, advancing and marking targets for the advancing troops to destroy. Being bogged down in constant firefights is not what they are all about. Rail Rifles as a Sniper upgrade. I understand that the increased firepower is part of the design method of the army, but this is one place that I don't believe it is appropriate. That is my position on the matter, anyway. Indeed another quite interesting idea, but again points changes down can have their own problems (which clearly the formation would need if it lost the Rail rifles). Couldnt go any lower than 150pts as bellow that you could start to take them to artificially raise your activation count. |
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