Tactical Command
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Support Craft Special Rule
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=19008		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  yme-loc [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Support Craft Special Rule
Ok this special rule applies only to the Manta and effectively means it counts as a popped up skimmer at all times, its currently in the design notes section and will need moving to the special rules section as thats what it is.

However it has a fundamental problem currently - popped up skimmers cant embark or disembark troops, so the transport capacity of the Manta is pointless, I assume people have not been playing this (obviously), but the rule is going to need re-writing as well as moving to special rules.

In light of this I wanted to start a topic on it, is it really required? I understand the Manta is big and probably doesnt fight exactly like a skimmer but from a simplification and abstraction point of view could the support craft rule be removed.

It seems reasonable to assume that if a manta can land to drop off troops it can hover at a level lower than terrain that is generally assumed to block line of sight to Titans (admittedly people play terrain differently - but tournament standard in the UK is to assume terrain blocks line of sight to anything).

Thoughts on this.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Support Craft Special Rule
Well Support Craft is something of a reserved Skimmer. A Skimmer always hovers low and pops up for shooting (and then can't [dis-]embark trops]. The Support Craft is always popped up and hovers low for (dis-)embarking troops and thus can't ignore terrain as if popped-up while doing so.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Support Craft Special Rule
So Joe, to be clear on what you're asking, you're proposing to make it a normal skimmer?

Potentially that could allow the Manta to barge into 16 units in close combat, which is kinda odd.
Author:  yme-loc [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Support Craft Special Rule
Evil and Chaos wrote:
So Joe, to be clear on what you're asking, you're proposing to make it a normal skimmer?

Potentially that could allow the Manta to barge into 16 units in close combat, which is kinda odd.


Can anyway as far as I can see Ben, nothing about being poped up prevents barging? which is even odder I would have thought.

Not really proposing just want to get peoples thoughts at the end of the day I am happy to re-write the rule (although does it apply to other lists?), it just seems the simpler option to drop it.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Support Craft Special Rule
Quote:
nothing about being poped up prevents barging?

Somewhere in the rule there should be a stipulation that says that the Manta must always force a FF in Engagements, too. It was in older versions of the rule but seems to have been lost by accident. Anyways the current rule was intended not to allow CC for the Manta... basically because the concept of a Manta entering CC is more than a bit odd!

Apparently the Manta's best Engagement technique is to land on the Leman Russ company and turn them all into metal pancakes... yeah. :)

Anyways, I'm not greatly adverse to seeing it with just Skimmer, though it would be another boost for the Manta (It's had quite a few lately and is now good), and it would allow the Manta to scrape along the ground sucking up enemies into CC (Technically allowed now, but shouldn't be).

Quote:
I am happy to re-write the rule (although does it apply to other lists?)

The Dark Eldar currently use a similar rule, albeit an earlier version. So it's already different.

Nothing else uses the Support Craft rule to my knowlege.
Author:  Mephiston [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Support Craft Special Rule
If you want to force the manta to FF just remove it's CC value.
Author:  zombocom [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Support Craft Special Rule
Mephiston wrote:
If you want to force the manta to FF just remove it's CC value.


Doesn't stop it ramming enemies and firefighting anyway; it's a war engine afterall.

I don't like the idea of the manta being able to hide behind buildings much...
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Support Craft Special Rule
An Imperator Titan can hide beind buildings if it is tall/broad enough. Why not a Manta too?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Support Craft Special Rule
Mephiston wrote:
If you want to force the manta to FF just remove it's CC value.

It already has no CC value.


And as Zombo notes, that doesn't stop it Fosbury Flopping onto 2/3rds of a formation and then firefighting the other 1/3rd.
Author:  zombocom [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Support Craft Special Rule
BlackLegion wrote:
An Imperator Titan can hide beind buildings if it is tall/broad enough. Why not a Manta too?


Because the manta is up in the sky.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Support Craft Special Rule
To land troops he has to hover relatively low. Becsuse of this my proposal above.
Author:  Chroma [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Support Craft Special Rule
yme-loc wrote:
Ok this special rule applies only to the Manta and effectively means it counts as a popped up skimmer at all times, its currently in the design notes section and will need moving to the special rules section as thats what it is.


I believe the intent of the rule is that the Manta "always counts as popped up" specifically for purposes of line of sight, not for embarking/disembarking.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Support Craft Special Rule
The intent of the rule was certainly not that the Manta can never disembark units that start the game onboard it. :-)
Author:  yme-loc [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Support Craft Special Rule
In light of the stuff about barging and to avoid a fairly major change in the way the Manta works which will almost certainly have points value considerations I think the best idea is to keep the rule and just amend its wording. Can people check the following is clear and correct.

Support Craft

Some large war engines of the Tau such as the Manta Dropship operate above the battlefield, below the airspace used by aircraft, but higher than standard skimmer levels and terrain features.

Vehicles which loom over the fight in this way have Support Craft stated in their individual notes. Support craft count as skimmers that for all line of sight and terrain purposes count as ‘popped up’ at all times. They are however able to embark and disembark units, also any units transported are allowed a save as normal if the Support Craft is destroyed.

Because they are so high above the battlefield a Support Craft must always use their Skimmer ability to force a firefight in engagements.
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Support Craft Special Rule
This is the rule I used for the Chaos Squat Zeppelin:

Always Popped Up (APU)
Units that have this special rule can always be fired upon by an enemy who have
weapons within range. APU units may never claim a cover bonus.

I guess it could also have a line that it cannot 'barge' troops.
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