Tactical Command :: View topic - Some Tau Concerns at this point.

1 - Orca

Problem: It's perhaps overly-fragile.
Proposed solution : Change 4+ armour to 5+ RA.

2 - Pathfinders

Problem: They're not unique enough for my taste.
Proposed solultion : Change Rail Rifle from AP4+ Disrupt to AP5+ Sniper. Because Rail Rifles are supposed to be Sniper Rifles anyway. That'll make the formation more unique-feeling. Likely points increase required.

3 - Ion Cannon Hammerhead

Problem : The Ion Cannon Hammerhead isn't as good as the other two Hammerhead variants, and likely won't see any gameplay.
Proposed solution : Either give it +1 to hit on the AP stat, or return the AA6+ shot it used to have back in the day. Either one will require renaming the weapon to "Hammerhead Ion Cannon" or similar to avoid other stat changes in the list.

Sounds reasonable. 3+ would also be an option, yes? I'm not sure where the fragility lies.

How about giving it an additional weapon alongside it's Ion Cannon (well, another additional weapon)? Something light, but useful.

Ion Cannon: Its meant to have a higher rate of fire than the rail cannon or fusion gun. Could it be made into a 2 shot weapon? 2x AP5/AT6?

clausewitz wrote:

Ion Cannon: Its meant to have a higher rate of fire than the rail cannon or fusion gun. Could it be made into a 2 shot weapon? 2x AP5/AT6?

Only in the same sense that the Heavy bolter has a higher rate of fire than the lascannon; the high rate of fire is basically why it's an AP weapon at all.

Orca: wasn't it meant to be somewhat fragile? What is the reason that it's fragility is now an issue?

Either one will require renaming the weapon to "Hammerhead Ion Cannon" or similar to avoid other stat changes in the list.

If you modify the number of shots on the Ion Cannons, you're going to affect Ion Cannons across the entire list (Which are already balanced, more or less).

Another option would be to reduce the FF rating of the Railgun and Fusion Cannon Hammerheads to 6+, and leave the Ion Cannon Hammerhead at 5+.

That'd be making up stuff that doesn't exist.

Orca: E&C can you explain *why* you think its fragility is now an issue?

So what? Makes just as much sense as the Hammerhead Ion Cannon working differently than every other Ion Cannon in the list.

You have already indicated that any changes will require renaming the weapon. I don't quite see how changing the number of shots is inherently problematic compared to adding AA shots?

But the Ion Cannon Hammerhead *is* inferior to the other two Hammerhead types.

Evil and Chaos wrote:

But the Ion Cannon Hammerhead *is* inferior to the other two Hammerhead types.

Just as it is in 40k. Honestly, they should just be cheaper.

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Some Tau Concerns at this point.
I've got a few quibbles with the list as it stands at this moment. So: =================== 1 - Orca Problem: It's perhaps overly-fragile. Proposed solution : Change 4+ armour to 5+ RA. 2 - Pathfinders Problem: They're not unique enough for my taste. Proposed solultion : Change Rail Rifle from AP4+ Disrupt to AP5+ Sniper. Because Rail Rifles are supposed to be Sniper Rifles anyway. That'll make the formation more unique-feeling. Likely points increase required. 3 - Ion Cannon Hammerhead Problem : The Ion Cannon Hammerhead isn't as good as the other two Hammerhead variants, and likely won't see any gameplay. Proposed solution : Either give it +1 to hit on the AP stat, or return the AA6+ shot it used to have back in the day. Either one will require renaming the weapon to "Hammerhead Ion Cannon" or similar to avoid other stat changes in the list. That's it, for the moment.

Author:	Simulated Knave [ Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Some Tau Concerns at this point.
Quote: 1 - Orca Problem: It's perhaps overly-fragile. Proposed solution : Change 4+ armour to 5+ RA. Sounds reasonable. 3+ would also be an option, yes? I'm not sure where the fragility lies. Quote: 2 - Pathfinders Problem: They're not unique enough for my taste. Proposed solultion : Change Rail Rifle from AP4+ Disrupt to AP5+ Sniper. Because Rail Rifles are supposed to be Sniper Rifles anyway. That'll make the formation more unique-feeling. Likely points increase required. Seems completely reasonable. Quote: 3 - Ion Cannon Hammerhead Problem : The Ion Cannon Hammerhead isn't as good as the other two Hammerhead variants, and likely won't see any gameplay. Proposed solution : Either give it +1 to hit on the AP stat, or return the AA6+ shot it used to have back in the day. Either one will require renaming the weapon to "Hammerhead Ion Cannon" or similar to avoid other stat changes in the list. How about giving it an additional weapon alongside it's Ion Cannon (well, another additional weapon)? Something light, but useful.

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Some Tau Concerns at this point.
Quote: Sounds reasonable. 3+ would also be an option, yes? I'm not sure where the fragility lies. 3+ would be better than 5+ RA. I don't think a big boost is needed. Quote: How about giving it an additional weapon alongside it's Ion Cannon (well, another additional weapon)? Something light, but useful. That'd be making up stuff that doesn't exist.

Author:	clausewitz [ Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:06 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Some Tau Concerns at this point.
Orca: wasn't it meant to be somewhat fragile? What is the reason that it's fragility is now an issue? Ion Cannon: Its meant to have a higher rate of fire than the rail cannon or fusion gun. Could it be made into a 2 shot weapon? 2x AP5/AT6?

Author:	zombocom [ Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Some Tau Concerns at this point.
clausewitz wrote: Ion Cannon: Its meant to have a higher rate of fire than the rail cannon or fusion gun. Could it be made into a 2 shot weapon? 2x AP5/AT6? Only in the same sense that the Heavy bolter has a higher rate of fire than the lascannon; the high rate of fire is basically why it's an AP weapon at all.

Tactical Command http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/

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Author:	Morgan Vening [ Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Some Tau Concerns at this point.
zombocom wrote: clausewitz wrote: Ion Cannon: Its meant to have a higher rate of fire than the rail cannon or fusion gun. Could it be made into a 2 shot weapon? 2x AP5/AT6? Only in the same sense that the Heavy bolter has a higher rate of fire than the lascannon; the high rate of fire is basically why it's an AP weapon at all. Yeah, but if you're going to fudge weapons anyway (Fusion Cannons), is it that big a deal? Morgan Vening

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Some Tau Concerns at this point.
If you modify the number of shots on the Ion Cannons, you're going to affect Ion Cannons across the entire list (Which are already balanced, more or less). It would be preferable to just fix the Ion Cannon Hammerhead in isolation, IMO. Another option would be to reduce the FF rating of the Railgun and Fusion Cannon Hammerheads to 6+, and leave the Ion Cannon Hammerhead at 5+. Perhaps that's a preferable option to changing the Ion Cannon stat, actually, as it doesn't require the annoying fudge of creating a new weapon name.

Author:	clausewitz [ Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Some Tau Concerns at this point.
Quote: Either one will require renaming the weapon to "Hammerhead Ion Cannon" or similar to avoid other stat changes in the list. Quote: If you modify the number of shots on the Ion Cannons, you're going to affect Ion Cannons across the entire list (Which are already balanced, more or less). You have already indicated that any changes will require renaming the weapon. I don't quite see how changing the number of shots is inherently problematic compared to adding AA shots? Quote: Another option would be to reduce the FF rating of the Railgun and Fusion Cannon Hammerheads to 6+, and leave the Ion Cannon Hammerhead at 5+. Would that not create more problems? The HH formation is considered almost balanced now right? So a sudden drop (halving) of its FF power might throw that out again. Orca: E&C can you explain why you think its fragility is now an issue?

Author:	awesomeshotdude [ Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Some Tau Concerns at this point.
Perhaps the Ion Cannon could be given the Disrupt ability. This would be in keeping with other Tau units and may help convey it's higher rate of fire over other Hammerhead mounted weapons. If AP 4+ was thought to garnish too many hits whilst carrying the Disrupt ability, the weapon could be raised to AP 5+.

Author:	Simulated Knave [ Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Some Tau Concerns at this point.
Quote: That'd be making up stuff that doesn't exist. So what? Makes just as much sense as the Hammerhead Ion Cannon working differently than every other Ion Cannon in the list.

Author:	Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Some Tau Concerns at this point.
Quote: Orca: E&C can you explain why you think its fragility is now an issue? Oh I've thought it's been too fragile for a long while. I've been arguing either for a drop in points or a boost in stats for ages. Quote: So what? Makes just as much sense as the Hammerhead Ion Cannon working differently than every other Ion Cannon in the list. Changing the to-hit stat on the Ion Cannon is very different to just adding a second gun on top and saying "Oh, all Ion Cannon Hammerheads also have a Fusion Cannon on top". One follows the background, and one is just making stuff up. Quote: You have already indicated that any changes will require renaming the weapon. I don't quite see how changing the number of shots is inherently problematic compared to adding AA shots? It's problematic whatever's done, no doubt about it. But the Ion Cannon Hammerhead is inferior to the other two Hammerhead types.

Author:	zombocom [ Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Some Tau Concerns at this point.
Evil and Chaos wrote: But the Ion Cannon Hammerhead is inferior to the other two Hammerhead types. Just as it is in 40k. Honestly, they should just be cheaper.

Author:	clausewitz [ Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Some Tau Concerns at this point.
Or make the basic formation all Ion Cannon HHs. With a 25/50/whatever point cost to "upgrade any number of ion cannons to fusion/rail guns". Edit: I still don't understand the reasoning behind your concerns about the fragility of the Orca E&C. Are they being shot down too often? By too little amount of flak? Too easy to kill with interceptors? Too fragile once they land? They were always described as being not suited for "dangerous" insertions thus they had a lesser armour save than air transports that were designed for "dangerous" landings (THawk, Landa etc). In a game versus Mephiston a while back he used 3 Orcas. I had 5 or 6 Hydras and Tbolts. I still only shot down 1 of them I think.

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