I think this list is going very well. Almost done, even.

We've been playtesting it very regularly so I think my opines will have a little weight.


Now...

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Opinion : Hammerheads are greatly underperforming.

Elaboration : Hammerheads are out-performed in every notable role either by Broadside suits (Which are more survivable, and cheaper to take 6 of), or Piranhas (More missiles again for cheaper).

Recommendation for change : Reduce price of Hammerhead formation to 200pts, Hammerhead upgrade to 100pts.


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Opinion : The Manta is greatly underperforming.

Elaboration : It's a large War Engine with mediocre Firefight abilities, a poor armour save combined with an inability to hide from attackers, and it costs 700pts. We've tested it and found it a concrete detriment to the Tau player.

Recommendation for change : Add the Fearless Special Ability. Drop to 500pts. Possibly give it FF 4+.


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Opinion : "Recon" formation has internal balance issues.

Elaboration : Piranhas are often more useful than Tetras, meaning a 5-1 split makes for a superb swiss-army knife formation that is better than almost any other configuration.

Recommendation for change : Split "Recon" into a Tetra formation (150pts) and a Piranha formation (175pts).

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Opinion : Crisis Suits are under performing.

Elaboration : They're not fast enough, or punchy enough, or survivable enough, to get the job done. They're basically only worth taking for the Supreme Commander re-roll, and that's it.

Recommendation for change : Increase armour save to 4+ RA (The 40k stats certainly support this). Also change CC rating to 5+. Change their MW shot to 4+.

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Opinion : Orca slightly under performs.

Elaboration : The Orca is quite vulnerable to anything above light AA fire, this is accurate to the background and 40k stats but makes it very hard to use.

Recommendation for change : Reduce points cost for Orca to 125pts.


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Opinion : Broadside suits are slightly over-performing.

Elaboration : They're frankly superb.

Recommendation for change : Increase points cost of formation to 325pts, increase upgrade cost to 150pts.

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And that's all I have to say about that.

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Agreed they underperform, but in a list that is supposed to be all about the shooty, these guys don't hit hard enough. I'd much rather see a better weapon stat for at least the Railgun - perhaps Lance. If Cancon showed me anything it was HHs are not able to deal with anything better than 5+ armoured vehicles with any definite aplomb.


Can't give an enlightened opinion as I've never used it but all of the above negatives put me off using it so far, so anything that makes it useful will get my vote. That said, making it 500 points won't make me take something so vulnerable. Even AT hits can kill it and it's shield is a bit of a joke. Costing it because of planetfall and transport is a bit naff when the troops it's supposed to transport aren't supposed to assault - so the question is ... why?


I'd rather see a solid 3/3 split formation. No min-maxing allowed - suck it up.


Agreed. Except I'll continue to argue that MW should extend to FF given the debate regarding the Land raider Crusader's Multimelta and Land speeders etc.... this is a halfway house design.


Can't give enlightened opinion as I don't use it for all the above reasons.


Disagree. Perhaps they seem to be "over performing" because they're actually useful and do the job they're supposed to ...? Having units that underperform might make these guys shine. I say change other things before we change these guys.

on crisis suits, while 4+RA might help them in epic, based on their 40k stats they should only get the normal 4+ save granted to marine infantry. The suit only provides them with the 3+ marine save and two wounds in 40k and boost their toughness to 4. This makes them no more durable than a marine librarian who is also T4, W2, 3+ save.

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-Vaaish

I like the Lance idea and have mentioned it before. I'd rather find a way to make them more effective and stay at their present points.


FF4+ is a minimum that is needed to improve this unit. I have used it many times and it is useless as a transport, useless in an Engagment and made of paper once broken. Certainly not in keeping with the fluff and supposed abilities of this combat transport/Titan hunter (fluff backs this).


I'd also rather see a solid 3/3 split. It stops the min/max issues and is a great formation that can still garrison. It would be easier to cost and solves all the problems mentioned earlier.


I'm not sure that the armour should be upgraded but I know for sure that the FF should go up to 4+. I'd far rather see this than an increase to the Close Combat value.


As long as we have a limit on the number of Orcas then this is good with me.


Broadsides need to be great as once they're on the board, they aren't maneuverable and tend to draw a LOT of fire. I don't mind a points increase for them.


As for the other parts of the list that need attention -

-2 for Tau formations (not Kroot) to initiate Engagements.
Firewarriors should go to FF4+

I've repeatedly seen Tau assaulted off the board in situations where this should not be happening. Tau especially have great trouble when playing against Marines.Thunderhawks are not afraid of Skyrays and Terminators are a Tau players bane.

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All Tau formations in Epic are assumed to have drones attached and included in their statlines, and that means Shield Drones.

In 40k, with Shield Drones, 3 Crisis Suits are about as tough to kill as 5 Terminators. RA4+ is justified.

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Lance is interesting, but it'd also have to be added to Broadside Suits, meaning the formation would have to go up in price by at least 100pts.


The Land Raider Crusader having a MW FF I consider a mistake.

In addition, giving a Tau infantry unit FF4+ moves away from a core design concept of the Tau list. I do not believe this is nessesary, for now.



Orcas are still going to be living in the 1/3rd aircraft allowance, competing for points with AX-1-0's and Barracudas. So still limited.



This change would make the Tau into a first rate Engagement army, as they'd just move Fire Warrior formations into support range then Engage to start a Firefight with the cheap, infiltrating Kroot.

Tau getting assaulted off the board by Terminators and Assault Marines won't change if you make them FF4+, because the enemy is generally using their CC ability to chase you off...

...Whilst not dismissing this idea completely out of hand (Because it is kinda interesting), I would propose not using it for now, and holding it in reserve for possible use after the current round of changes. It is after all a huge change.

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Hammerheads - Agree with this they are not awful just overcosted as a formation and upgrade.

Manta - Give it FF4+ and drop it to 600pts and it would be fine, the lack of fearless is quite distinct and characterful but it needs to be cheaper.

Recon - the fixed size formations would work, personally though I think you can just make the formation 175pts and its fine. You would still mostly see the 5 Piranha + 1 Tetra build but at least 175pts is what its worth.

Crisis - probably fine just with MW4+ and CC5+, 4+ RA would make them very good indeed.

Orca - Only one I disagree with, I dont think personally if you are not using them at 150 you wont use them at 125pts, I would always take 1 for 150pts and 2 for 125pts and start to recycle my new improved crisis like I would terminators.

Broadsides - agree they are a bit good.

I just compare them in utility to Thunderhawks, which have a better armour save, better SR and Initiative and much better guns (Both offensive and passive AA), for only 50pts.

Obviously context matters, but I wouldn't consider "recycling" Crisis (or other) formations via Orca to be a terrible thing, and it still takes an average of only ~3.8 hits to bring an Orca down (As opposed to ~7.6 hits to bring down a Thunderhawk), so you can't generally undertake the same kind of ultra-offensive operations with one as you can with a Thunderhawk.

In fact, one could say that it adds an extra tactical dimention / option to the Tau playstyle, that of "modern style" "airborne ranger" operations.


It's only an 8% increase in survivability from 3+ armour, except against Macro-Weapons (Where in 40k they'd be using their shield drones' 4+ saving throws, better than a Terminator's 5+ saving throw).

If they had to go up by 25pts as a consequence, then so be it...


=====================

I intentionally made the E series of proposals slightly underpowered, so that overpowered aspects of the list would quickly show themselves by sticking out clearly. I believe we've dealt with most of the overpowered aspects so it's now time to ramp up the power of certain units and test again to make sure the balance isn't thrown out of whack.

I think this could be the final ajustment needed for the list, with at most just one final ajustment beyond this one nessesary.

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Good thread by E&C. Lots of nice ideas here. My two cents:

Hammerheads - Need to be better imho. A points decrease could make them more balanced, but would perhaps not make them very popular. I think the Tau MBT deserves a a little more than that. The railgun mounted on a tank would arguably have a greater energy source than that on a Broadside suit, therefore would fire heavier rounds at higher velocities, granting Lance. The Broadside railguns are already named "Twin Broadside Railguns" and the HH "Railgun", so the distinctionbetween the two weapon systems is in place. The BS gun has a higher AT value due to its greater rate of fire, but packs a lighter punch when compared to the positively massive mass driver on the HH gunship. The HH railgun shoots fewer rounds per fire action, but when they hit, the results are suitably impressive. How does that sound to y'all?

Crisis Suits - They are the elite CRISIS unit. This implies that they are the Tau's main GTHP (Gone To Heck Plan) troop, that is used to fix stuff that does not go according to their doctrine of long range bombardments. FF4+ OR FFMW would mirror their excellent guns (rapid fire plasma rifles an fusion guns) an dallow them to intervene in a crisis fixer role. Since this would perhaps fly in the face of established list design parameters though, they could instead be made faster and/or more durable. As long as they get a slight boost.

Recon - I like the set 50/50 split formation best.

Orca - Down to 125 would be fine with me.

Manta - Never used it, because it seems very vulnerable to me (never even proxied it). Can't really make a good call on this one.

Fire Warriors - Bringing them to FF4 would change the list a lot. I'm not sure that's a good thing.

Actually, isn't it more like moving away from a comment made by Jervis, years ago, and slavishly followed by us ever since (to the detriment of the list)?


Good point.
At least that would give us a good reason to take Kroot!


As I've described in previous threads, I've been Fire Fighted off the board by Marines with almost no cost to the Marines at all. I'm not sure how to make the Tau more representative at FF range but I do know that the present situation is not playable. They simply should be better at that range and Epic does not allow for this much tampering with unit abilities when Engagements rule the game.


I admit it's a huge change but considering I lost my last 6 games straight (using Tau) against a player that I have a very good win/loss ratio against, I can smell something fishy with the list and it does need some changes. One of my fellow players has asked me to stop using the Tau as they are not providing a fair game (his words). I haven't used my Tau for a few months now as I'm not enjoying the games as much as I hoped I would.


Good onya E&C for still following this list and helping to see it finished. Much appreciated mate.

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I disagree that the design principles followed for the list have been to its detriment.

On the contrary, the list has a completely unique feel, one that would be compromised by just making it into another Firefight-style army (To say nothing of the fact that you'd end up with quite small armies as points costs would have to rise).


With respect, a formation with 5+ FF ratings and 5+ armour saves shouldn't be "firefighted off the board" by most Marine formations unless the opponent is getting the better of you, tactically speaking.

Fire Warriors on Overwatch, for example, should be death incarnate to any Marine formation that attempts an Engage order other than possibly Terminators.



I would prefer we up-powered the list in small (prudent) measures, rather than giving the Tau prevailent access to FF4+ across the board (Which would be a huge change). As I said, it isn't an inconcievable direction, but it is an admission of defeat.

I'm sorry you've dropped out of the playtesting, and hope you'll return as the list moves to the finish line.

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I didn't really consider it play testing anymore...
I've played well over a dozen games with the latest Tau list and it doesn't work for me.

I remember TRC explaining to me that Epic is a game of maneuvrability. Games of Epic are not generally won by shooting an opponent off the table but rather by being in the right place at the right time.

Tau can get to the right place but once there, they are engaged, then broken and running for their lives (ofetn they are broken long before they can get where they need to be).

You have tried to question my tactics before and as I explained then, just about everything can go statistically accurately and a Manta, Crisis Cadre, Hammerhead Group and reinforced FireWarrior Cadre can be thrashed by 2 Landraider Crusaders and 4 Tac squads (with ample supporting fire) for the loss of 1 Landraider and 1 Tac squad.
The numbers do not add up in the current list.

Forget tactics Ben, the above situation just isn't representative of Tau abilities in a Firefight.

As I said earlier, I don't have a polished, fullproof answer to this problem but until we try something different, I can't see me getting all that ForgeWorld resin out of the display cabinet and onto the game board. My opponets know how to beat them now and the games aren't fun for either player.

Sorry to highjack your thread mate. I'll go back into my box now and see what others have to say.
Cheers.

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I haven't seen your Firefight number crunching, but I wouldn't use Land Raider Crusaders in such an example, as I believe their current NetEA stats to be an overpowered, underpriced, mistake.

Plus, two of your listed formations are the Manta and a Hammerhead formation, each of which I believe to be overpriced and underpowered... taking either of those two formations under their current stats and points costs is the choice of someone who actively wants to lose their games...


...so I think we both want to see the Tau improve in power anyway, we just disagree on specifics, for the moment.

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I don't want to turn this into a argument about 40k, but I don't think that it's accurate to say they are as tough as terminators. Broadsides with shield drones, yes, and even slightly better until the drones go down. Crisis, no. Shield drones only give you a 4+ invulnerable save against most of the weapons you want to shoot at suits. In a rough marine comparison, that just gives them the equivalent of an iron halo save for a marine which only seems to only translate into a 6+ invulnerable save in epic.

I'm guessing that each stand is assumed to be three crisis with between three and six drones?

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-Vaaish

Fire Warriors are now amazing when used correctly, they definitely don't need a FF boost. yme-loc even successfully uses them in an orca as an air assault formation when broadsides attached!