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Orca Transport Capacity
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=17911		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Honda [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Orca Transport Capacity
In my latest game, I mistakenly loaded a FW + Crisis formation into the Orca and it was a fairly effective combination. The Orca landed twice in the game, once for a firing attack, and the other for an assault.

So the question is, should the Orca be capable of transporting these two formations? Is the ability to bring in two formations like this OTT? Should there be a cost increase to the Orca if the transport gets bumped up by 2?

Other than Onyx, is anyone else using Orcas?
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Orca Transport Capacity
Well, technically, it's already overburdened.

The Taros book lists it's capacity as 48 Fire Warriors + Equipment. Which is ~10 stands.

The mechanics say...

24 Fire Warriors*, 8 Drones, and 1 Etheral. Fire Warriors are interchangeable with Stealth, Pathfinders and Kroot).

And one of the following.
24 FW's (Gun Drones swapped in 1:1)
6 Crisis (each Crisis = 4 FW)
3 Broadsides (= 8 FW)
4 Drone Sentry Turrets (= 6 FW)
2 Tetra (= 12 FW)
6 Krootox (= 4 FW)
12 Kroot Hound (= 2 FW)

Even if you put a base of FW's as 4+1Drone, it's still technically not possible to fit 12 FW bases in an Orca (editted to correct numbers)

IIRC, you had a foot FW formation and a Crisis formation in the Orca. That's not the 14 slots your suggestion grants, it's 16. (8 + 2x4).

As it stands, assuming you can tear out the initial FW compartment, you can still only fit 12 Crisis suits on board. At 3 per base (the minimum technically required for infantry), that makes them just fit with no space remaining. At 2 per base, you could possibly squeeze in a Pathfinder squad, but not a full Fire Warrior formation.

It all depends on how closely you want to stick to canon. Personally, I don't mind (IMO balance trumps fluff), but you might find resistance to any changes that are well outside the current boundaries of fluff.

Morgan Vening
Author:  zombocom [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Orca Transport Capacity
The problem the orca, (and to a lesser extent the manta) have is that air transports are mainly useful for engagements. Other than a sneaky orca full of kroot I can't see all that many uses for them.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Orca Transport Capacity
Orca full of broadsides. :)
Author:  Jstr19 [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Orca Transport Capacity
I still maintain that Broadsides are more useful on over watch.
Author:  zombocom [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Orca Transport Capacity
Quote: (Jstr19 @ Feb. 12 2010, 21:12 )

I still maintain that Broadsides are more useful on over watch.

Yup. Crisis in an orca could be interesting; dumping them at close range to the enemy is nigh on an engagement level of destruction as long as they're markerlit. They wouldn't get to jump away after though...
Author:  Honda [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Orca Transport Capacity
Quote: 

The problem the orca, (and to a lesser extent the manta) have is that air transports are mainly useful for engagements. Other than a sneaky orca full of kroot I can't see all that many uses for them.


We learned something last night, that I had read, but never clicked on at the time.

The formations being transported by the WE can either engage or shoot at the same target as the transport. In one case, the Orca GA'd a truk mob and the transported units were able to disembark and shoot. That worked fairly well.

The other scenario is the standard assault, so no need to belabour that point.

So let's not focus too much on how we think the tactic might work. I'm interested in:

1. Whether carrying a FW cadre + a Crisis cadre is too strong an ability for what the Orca currently costs?

2. If yes, should there be a bump in the cost (along with the attendant transport increase)?

3. No, leave the Orca as is?
Author:  zombocom [ Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Orca Transport Capacity
I think if it were undercosted we'd be seeing a lot more of them.

Such a transport would be worth a lot more in other armies, but as I said that's due to air engagements.
Author:  Onyx [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:58 am ]
Post subject:  Orca Transport Capacity
Seeing as a Manta can carry 20 stands, it seems to me that an Orca carrying 16 (the correct number if you add a FW Cadre and Crisis Suits) as Morgan pointed out seems a bit much.

I think we should stick with 12 slots. Thats still a reinforced Crisis Suits Cadre, 2 Broadside Groups, a reinforced FW Cadre, a Kroot Kindred plus a couple of friends etc.

I would never dream of using a Crisis Suit Cadre to assault out of an Orca. I have chosen Crisis' as they have the ability to take on any opponent, at close range and do plenty of damage. Again, my opponents are cottoning on to this and I'm seeing a lot more Overwatch waiting for the Orca to arrive  :glare:
Author:  Honda [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:34 am ]
Post subject:  Orca Transport Capacity
Quote: 

I would never dream of using a Crisis Suit Cadre to assault out of an Orca. I have chosen Crisis' as they have the ability to take on any opponent, at close range and do plenty of damage


Oh, I definitely agree. In an assault, they just don't have the oomph to take on anything. However, as you pointed, shooting they can make quite an impression on infantry.

I'm Ok with leaving them as is. I'll definitely be testing some 6 strong Crisis formations in them as the opportunity to crossfire with them out of the Orca could make them rather wicked.
Author:  Jstr19 [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:08 am ]
Post subject:  Orca Transport Capacity
In the old Jetpack rules there was a very little used part which enabled the orca to drop off units with the jetpack rules without having to land ("The Tau parachute rule"). It enabled the Orca to drop off the units then both the Orca and the transported Jetpack unit to fire on the same target, essentially a shooting engagement. BM's on the Orca did not effect the shooting of the Jetpack formation and it made the maneuver much less risky for the Orca as it couldn't be engaged. When the Jetpack rule was changed this part was left out perhaps because few were aware of it. Do we think its a good idea to add the rule back in?

Additionally I think currently the Orca is over costed. It is 50 points less than a TH but has considerably less shooting, much less armour and is in an army which currently only has 1 engagement unit that has to leave its best units (kroot oxes) at home to use it as a transport. However, I don't think the transport capacity should be increased as it might make kroot greatly more powerful.
Author:  Honda [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:24 am ]
Post subject:  Orca Transport Capacity
Quote: 

In the old Jetpack rules there was a very little used part which enabled the orca to drop off units with the jetpack rules without having to land ("The Tau parachute rule"). It enabled the Orca to drop off the units then both the Orca and the transported Jetpack unit to fire on the same target, essentially a shooting engagement. BM's on the Orca did not effect the shooting of the Jetpack formation and it made the maneuver much less risky for the Orca as it couldn't be engaged. When the Jetpack rule was changed this part was left out perhaps because few were aware of it. Do we think its a good idea to add the rule back in?


I may not be reading this correctly, but in the WE rules, I think we can do that now.

Quote: 

Additionally I think currently the Orca is over costed. It is 50 points less than a TH but has considerably less shooting, much less armour and is in an army which currently only has 1 engagement unit that has to leave its best units (kroot oxes) at home to use it as a transport. However, I don't think the transport capacity should be increased as it might make kroot greatly more powerful.


The cost of the Orca was bumped to prevent spamming. A reasonable case was made by TRC, and I think he played a couple of games as well to demonstrate. I am open to looking at this since that was brought over from previous versions of the list.
Author:  Jstr19 [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:02 am ]
Post subject:  Orca Transport Capacity
No in the War Engine rules you need to land to disembark. With the old Jetpack rule the Orca didn't need to.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Orca Transport Capacity
On the Orca question - Keep as is.

Quote: 

Other than Onyx, is anyone else using Orcas?

Not me. Too expensive to add to a formation when points costs are critical to building this list. Plus I don't think it's purpose is of much use right now when the list has firepower issues in a number of unit types

I have to say I'm often perplexed by your stances on this list Honda.  :laugh: One minute you tell us late changes won't happen this close to lock down, then you go and propose/ask for views on a late change. Are you now considering not locking the list down at the end of Feb?

Quote: 

The cost of the Orca was bumped to prevent spamming. A reasonable case was made by TRC, and I think he played a couple of games as well to demonstrate. I am open to looking at this since that was brought over from previous versions of the list.

But then no one wanted to try it as a transport upgrade only (not an individual unit purchase) for the various formations that use it, so we get stuck with an overpriced unit instead of a 100 point transport.... Yet another radical idea that could have worked but was ignored to take a safe route instead of pushing the boundaries with ideas.  :down:
Author:  yme-loc [ Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Orca Transport Capacity
I would always take a single Orca with their current stats for 150pts in any Tau army I used, as they add so much flexibility. Things I have transported are crisis, standard fire warrior formations or upgraded fire warrriors with either additional warriors or broadsides added.
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