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Dear Honda...

 Post subject: Dear Honda...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:45 pm 
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All I want for Christmas is an erratad data sheet set, a corresponding reference sheet for 6.0, all battlesuits back at 1+ initiative, a longer period of testing, Barracudas with a missile pod and Forge World to bring back the Tau minis - I've been a good boy this year. :laugh:

Seriously though, it's very painful not knowing which set of stats is accurate and the suits are pretty annoying at 2+.

Merry Christmas  :D


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 Post subject: Dear Honda...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:21 pm 
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I wouldn't worry about Forgeworld's minis.  :(

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 Post subject: Dear Honda...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:04 pm 
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Have you really been that good?

1. I plan on getting to the list for corrections starting this weekend. Been lots of Real Life ™ interferring.

2. I think the Missile Pod on the barracuda's is a good fix, so expect to see that in.

3. Yes, Crisis a 1+ Init would be much better, no doubt about it. Here is my biggest concern about that right now.

The current list allows one to take an all Crisis suit army (I know possible dumb, but maybe not), backed by some Skyrays (formation), then some aircraft if you want it. If all Crisis are at Init 1+, I don't think that reflects a "Tau" list as I would define it. I am not going to let that happen.

So, my current thinking is to all crisis formations led by either the SC or a Shas'el to have +1 Init. Bog standard crisis would remain at a 2+.

I want to play test that more before deciding anything.

4. I still intend to finalize the testing and freeze the "code" by the end of the year.

5. ForgeWorld is above my pay grade  :rock:

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 Post subject: Dear Honda...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:08 pm 
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Good idea with the Shas'El IMO... I don't think I've ever seen anyone take a Shas'El, but this would see a fairly decent ammount of them being taken.  :agree:

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 Post subject: Dear Honda...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:26 pm 
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Quote: (Honda @ Dec. 10 2009, 18:04 )

Bog standard crisis would remain at a 2+.

Is there really such a thing as "bog standard" Crisis suits?  Aren't they the elite of the Tau?

An "almost 100%" Crisis suit army would be one that was dealing with a *major* crisis!  I can definitely see the Tau fighting that way!

If you're going to go this route anyway, you might as well just include the cost of the Shas'El in the basic formation as I can't imagine anyone *not* taking it as 2+ Crisis formations really don't work as well as one would think highly trained Tau would.  

Crisis suit Fire Warriors are the Tau equivalent of "Space Marines" for the Imperium, perhaps not as personally augmented, but certainly training, experience, and technologically similar.

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 Post subject: Dear Honda...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:30 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ Dec. 10 2009, 18:26 )

...just include the cost of the Shas'El in the basic formation as I can't imagine anyone *not* taking it as 2+ Crisis formations really don't work ...

...Crisis suit Fire Warriors are the Tau equivalent of "Space Marines" for the Imperium, perhaps not as personally augmented, but certainly training, experience, and technologically similar.

A big +1 for this!

Increasing their basic Initiative rating to 1+, but including a Shas'El as standard with all Crisis formations (upgradable to Shas'O) ... I love this idea.

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 Post subject: Dear Honda...
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:34 pm 
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I'm completely with Chroma (and just about everyone else) on this one. If there is any unit that deserves 1+ initiative it is the Tau Rapid Reaction Force, the Crisis Suits.

If you think crisis suits are potentially overpowered then increase their price or downgrade their weapons, but put the initiative back to 1+.

I'm completely convinced this variably initiative is a huge mistake, much like the variable strategy rating of the Necrons which was eventually dropped. The main reason it was dropped was that it could never be balanced, because formations were worth more or less depending on the SR of the army, but that couldn't be taken into account. Likewise here, upgrades to the formation are worth more for the 1+ formations than the 2+ ones, yet cost the same.

Frankly if crisis suits stay at 2+ you'll never see them used without a supreme commander.

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 Post subject: Dear Honda...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:51 am 
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Quote: 

...and just about everyone else...

I do feel this is probably correct.

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 Post subject: Dear Honda...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:54 am 
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Quote: 

The current list allows one to take an all Crisis suit army (I know possible dumb, but maybe not), backed by some Skyrays (formation), then some aircraft if you want it. If all Crisis are at Init 1+, I don't think that reflects a "Tau" list as I would define it. I am not going to let that happen.


Well your list design already lets people take an all crisis suit army - Like you say, a "possibly dumb" design in a list. A design which reduces initiative for all other formation of the same unit type while one doesn't, just to deter people from doing this seems, well, artificial.

Anyway I guess we'll leave it to you.


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 Post subject: Dear Honda...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:21 am 
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Nearly all Crisis armies can be done in W40k so it wouldn't be a such a unreasonable thing to see occasionally. You can field nearly all Terminator armies and/or Deathwing armies and I imagine Crisis Suits to be rather more common that either of these.

Personally I think the obvious way to prevent all Crisis Suit armies and which should be done generally, is to make epic Fire Warriors a 1+ in the epic list, just like Fire Warriors units are in a W40k Tau army (a minimum requirement which is rare or possibly even unique in W40k).


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 Post subject: Dear Honda...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:30 am 
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Chroma +1

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 Post subject: Dear Honda...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:13 am 
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A way to stop all 'suit' armies is to make the Fire Warriors the main asset.

Like has been done on another list or two, you only get suits and other units on a 1:1 (this is extreme) or 1:2 ratio.

So 1 Firewarrior unit allows you to take 2 other core formation units and the like.

If you never never try, you will never never know

Locking this list down at the end of the year (although I understand the reasonings) is a mistake. Playtests and final decisions should go until March 2010. As the list was silent for so long, going like a 'bulldozer' to have it completed by eoy is just going to disenfranchise people.

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 Post subject: Dear Honda...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 3:59 am 
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Quote: 

Well your list design already lets people take an all crisis suit army - Like you say, a "possibly dumb" design in a list. A design which reduces initiative for all other formation of the same unit type while one doesn't, just to deter people from doing this seems, well, artificial.


I need to clarify. I am not against all crisis suit armies, because as was pointed out, in a standard 40K list you can take a lot of crisis suits.

What I am against is an all crisis suit army that is all 1+ initiative. That would provide an army that has the same initiative as Space Marines and significantly better firepower and mobility/unit. So we're not going to go there.

As stated in the earlier post, I want to test the SC + probably 2 Shas'el, in a suit heavy list. As I observed in last night's game, the +2 initiative had zero effect on the second crisis unit. That doesn't mean that it's 100% right, but given the amount of fire power the formations field I'm not going to just "kick the door down". It is too critical a decision at this point in the testing.

Do not expect high risk, big changes that could have the potential of unbalancing the list. We are at the stage where fine tuning, where appropriate, is all the list is  going to get.

Quote: 

A way to stop all 'suit' armies is to make the Fire Warriors the main asset.


Fire Warriors have already been given a stronger emphasis along with the de-emphasis of the armor cadre. There is no need to enhance them any more. I don't want a list that is that constrained.

Quote: 

Locking this list down at the end of the year (although I understand the reasonings) is a mistake. Playtests and final decisions should go until March 2010. As the list was silent for so long, going like a 'bulldozer' to have it completed by eoy is just going to disenfranchise people.


I respect your opinion, but disagree. There is no benefit to dragging this exercise out. In general, people (not just the Tau community) avoid deadlines because it forces them to commit. Communities don't like to commit, because they're never really sure whether or not something better will come along.

That's not how I am wired. I am task and results oriented, for better or worse.

The previous versions had many long testing periods and did not produce better lists. In fact, they only gave the various participants time to become entrenched in their positions and the list and community were the ones that suffered...for years, not months, but years.

Look to your own efforts (which are significant) and then multiple the time and effort you've expended by 3-4 years. I believe you'd come to the same conclusion with the same level of investment.

There will never be a right time to freeze. Players can always test longer. However, any project owner needs to be able to recognize that when the slope of the "bugs" curve starts to flatten out, you're getting close to your release date. We're very close to our release date.

I don't mean to imply that the list is perfect. It's not. It is pretty darn good and it does not appear to cause great "ripples in the force". It's fun to play and opponents enjoy the challenge it presents them.

We could do a lot worse.

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 Post subject: Dear Honda...
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:08 am 
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Quote: (Honda @ Dec. 11 2009, 02:59 )

Do not expect high risk, big changes that could have the potential of unbalancing the list. We are at the stage where fine tuning, where appropriate, is all the list is  going to get.

Honda, your decision to change crisis suits to initiative 2+ is exactly a high risk, big change that has potential of unbalancing the list.

They've been 1+ forever and noone has ever complained about this.

Why is it a problem that you could in theory make a list of nothing but 1+ init Crisis Suits? If suits are price properly it won't be a problem at all.

Again, Crisis Suits absolutely deserve to be 1+, more than just about any other unit out there.

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