Tactical Command
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Coordinated Fire
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=17068		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Honda [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Coordinated Fire
I used CoFire once in my last game and I was looking at different ways of setting up the orders based on the results of the CoFire.

So my understanding based on the text is this:

1. One formation calling CoFire and up to two others may participate
2. The orders each executes do not have to be the same
3. You can choose what sequence you want the formations to execute

Now in the situation I faced, I wanted to hit an Eldar tank formation pretty hard, but I was also concerned that a couple biker hosts were going to sweep my flank. So I considered using two units to shoot at the target and then place the third unit on Overwatch.

After re-reading the text as well as what my intent is for the rule, I concluded that if I did set the "flanking" unit on overwatch, it still had to shoot at the target the other two formations shot at, thus removing any benefit to setting a flanker on OW.

I believe I am interpreting that correctly, but I would like to confirm.

So then we theorized whether or not CoFire should have verbiage that specifically states which orders are appropriate (e.g. Single, Double, Sustain, March) or in fact the orders that can be executed are the full inventory. Last night I was leaning towards the former, but after thinking about it more, I am inclined to leave the text as is.

One of the scenarios I thought of for keeping the full inventory is this:

1. Tau player successfully rolls for CoFire
2. Tau player nominates two additional formations to participate
3. One of the formations goes on Overwatch
4. The two other formations shoot at the target and in the process break the formation
5. The owning playr of the broken formation, takes his Withdraw move
6. However, before he gets out of range, the OW formation takes its shots

That simulates a "dog flushing pheasant" sort of scenario (Sorry, it's hunting season here in Texas), but is certainly an understandable set of actions. It is clear to me though that the formation on OW should not be able to shoot at any other formation.

This would preclude a Tau player from calling CoFire, then flipping three formations onto Overwatch with one command.

Does that make sense?

N
Author:  Mephiston [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Coordinated Fire
One question I've always had but never asked is do you have to declare all the formations orders before carrying out the first?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Coordinated Fire
The Coordiated Fire rule contains this line:

Quote: 

If the test is passed then all formations concerned are allowed to take
either an advance, double or sustained fire action.


And so Overwatch is not a permitted action type when undertaking a Coordinated Fire action.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Coordinated Fire
Quote: (Mephiston @ Nov. 05 2009, 16:31 )

One question I've always had but never asked is do you have to declare all the formations orders before carrying out the first?

I would say that all orders should be decided before the action test is rolled, as such a rule would promote the use of forward thinking (ie: it would help make the game more tactically complex).


On the other hand, the rules actually say this:

Quote: 

Each formations action is declared and resolved (including testing to see if the target formation is broken) before
moving on to the next Tau formation.


So there's no need to pre-decide your actions under the current wording.



=====

I have noted a typo and a formatting error in the Coordinated Fire section, to-whit:

- In the quote above, "formations" should be "formation's".

- The opening background paragraph is repeated in the body of the rules text.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Coordinated Fire
I think all the actions should require active shooting by the Tau, as they do now.  It is a replacement for a combined assault, not a general "we're really good at doing whatever we want" ability.

Adding OW starts getting into funky tactics and other random abilities, e.g. a Tau player facing air assaults or drop pods could theoretically throw 6 formations on OW in one activate/retain.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Coordinated Fire
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 05 2009, 16:33 )

I would say that all orders should be decided before the action test is rolled, as such a rule would promote the use of forward thinking (ie: it would help make the game more tactically complex).

On the other hand, the rules actually say this:

Quote: 

Each formations action is declared and resolved (including testing to see if the target formation is broken) before
moving on to the next Tau formation.


So there's no need to pre-decide your actions under the current wording.

The reason for that was the "what if the formation breaks?" situation.

The choices are do something funky with the break/withdrawal rules (not a good idea), force the Tau to waste an activation if they get lucky (e.g. the target breaks after the first Tau formation fires and the other tau cannot chase because they already declared orders), or the rule as it is, which allows the Tau a limited ability to react as the activations proceed.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Coordinated Fire
Quote: 

The choices are do something funky with the break/withdrawal rules (not a good idea), force the Tau to waste an activation if they get lucky (e.g. the target breaks after the first Tau formation fires and the other tau cannot chase because they already declared orders), or the rule as it is, which allows the Tau a limited ability to react as the activations proceed.


There is a fourth option, which is simply to say that the Coordinating formations move and fire simultaniously, like any other set of formations performing a Combined action (Commanders calling engagements, or Air Assaulting / Air Landing & shooting formations).

Such a method would be faster to resolve, but would also be a minor nerf as currently you lay a new BM for shooting at the target for each participating formation.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Coordinated Fire
Those combinations don't move simultaneously, they become one formation and all take the same action.  That's an important difference.

A single formation would be a great hindrance for the Tau as they lose the +1BM "coming under fire" for the additional formations and, more importantly, if you treat them as a single formation they lose the ability to crossfire.  I think that's a total non-starter.

If you do the actions separately but simultaneously, I assume you ignore the breaking rules until all the actions are resolved?  That's what I meant by "do something funky with the break/withdraw rules" - suspending them until everything is resolved.

If so, that changes the dynamics considerably.  There's no chance for the target to Withdraw, but there is also no chance for the Tau to chase and fire on a broken formation.  Fast targets might take more damage as all the Tau had a chance to continue to fire before they retreat, but slow targets can't be run down.  There is no way for the Tau to knock a target off a position and occupy the now-empty position (analogous to assault/consolidate).  A few units could still effectively prevent the Tau from taking an objective even when decisively beaten.

If you do simultaneous but separate and don't change the rules, then the major problem is the Tau risk of wasted fire or poor activation choice rises dramatically.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Coordinated Fire
Neal: Fair enough, the current system is most probably the best implementation then.
Author:  Honda [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Coordinated Fire
Quote: 

Adding OW starts getting into funky tactics and other random abilities, e.g. a Tau player facing air assaults or drop pods could theoretically throw 6 formations on OW in one activate/retain.


The reason I don't think OW is out of line right now is the fact that the way I was interpreting the text, a specific target has to be identified for the CoFire. So if another target showed up, since it wasn't the target that was originally identified for the CoFire, it would not be eligible to be shot at.

That being said, I'm fine with the Orders that E&C listed (I somehow missed those last night), so I think we keep it simple and keep it clean. I am not trying to introduce anything funky to the list.

Cheers,
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Coordinated Fire
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 05 2009, 17:15 )

Neal: Fair enough, the current system is most probably the best implementation then.

I'm not necessarily taking that position.  I was just running down a quick summary of previous discussions.

===

Honda:  Cool.
Author:  frogbear [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Coordinated Fire
Quote: (nealhunt @ Nov. 06 2009, 01:46 )

"we're really good at doing whatever we want" ability.

As an opponent of the Tau, this is how I feel the rule works and comes across. In that regard I see it as too good an ability. It should be an all or nothing rather than a decision.

You should have to declare all your actions as it is simultaneous (much like the commander ability).

*Personal opinion Warning*
Having the pick and chose (3 separate actions in a row) really just builds on the fact that Tau are just a Robotech force in a 40k universe. In that, I mean they just don't fit within the established rules as they are.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Coordinated Fire
I agree with Hena.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Coordinated Fire
Quote: 

I agree with Hena.

As do I.

Quote: 

Yes there is the chance that enemy will break and escape from you, but it feels more fair that way from opposition

This point is the one that makes me think we already have it correct. If you over commit and smash the enemy formation, you have wasted an entire activation or more - that is the gamble you take with it. That is the balancing factor with CoFi that has always worked well, IMO.
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