Tactical Command
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Adjust the AX-1-0?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16690		 Page 1 of 6
Author:  Dobbsy [ Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Adjust the AX-1-0?
As mentioned and discussed in this thread:

AX-1-0 discussion

I think the squadron needs adjusting. Others among us also feel this way while, of course, some don't.

Discuss....  :agree:
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Mon Sep 21, 2009 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Adjust the AX-1-0?
Frogbear hated them (playing with 3 Lords of Battles and a Banelord before we moved LoB to War Engines), and I fielded two squads.

Not really sure where I sit on them, other than not wanting to see them drop in cost. Lack of/minimal air cover should not mean ~5 unkillable TK shots per turn.

I'm hoping to try out some Tau in the near future, but Frogbear wants me on another project. We'll see.

Morgan Vening
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Adjust the AX-1-0?
To be blunt those who are good with air are great with them, those who aren't, well, aren't. Though I'll have to check to see how much the stats have changed to see if this still holds true :)
Author:  zombocom [ Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Adjust the AX-1-0?
Flying shadowswords need to be expensive, they really can't come down in price.
Author:  Honda [ Mon Sep 21, 2009 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Adjust the AX-1-0?
Agree with Zombocom. Also I would postpone any discussions on cost until the latest "blended" version becomes available (approx. 10 days).
Author:  Dobbsy [ Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Adjust the AX-1-0?
Quote: 

To be blunt those who are good with air are great with them, those who aren't, well, aren't.

Well I find this a load of hogwash and slightly insulting. I'm good with air and these aircraft die like flies ... but I'm forced to take them to properly deal with WE/Titans. Of course any player who fights them with little/without AA in their list will dislike them but that's the opposing list's problem not the squadron's issue. Against any solid AA/FLak screen they aren't worth the points. Sure they hurt when they hit, but the chances of losing the squadron on the run in have been extremely high in my experience.

Quote: 

Flying shadowswords need to be expensive, they really can't come down in price

Yes they can. They're already 150 points more expensive than a shadowsword... even a drop of 50 means they're 100 points more expensive. And yes, I do understand there's two of them.

Look if we don't drop points give them something else to help them survive past the first attack run....
Author:  stompzilla [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Adjust the AX-1-0?
I'm with Dobbsy on this one.  I have completely stopped using AX-1-0s from my list because they die like flys, after achieving very little.

As for flying shadowsword analogy - don't shadowswords get 3DP and a reinforced 4+ sv, as well as a chance to use cover and stay out of sight, as well as commissars, and a 90 cm range?  Not a very good analogy at all.

For my money i'd like to see a range increase.  They are firing railguns after all.
Author:  frogbear [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:28 am ]
Post subject:  Adjust the AX-1-0?
Quote: (Morgan Vening @ Sep. 21 2009, 23:46 )

Frogbear hated them

To be fair, I had no aircraft of my own in that game so that opinion (right after the game mind you), is not my view. I have no view as I have not looked at them and compared them with any thought.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:08 am ]
Post subject:  Adjust the AX-1-0?
Quote: 

To be fair, I had no aircraft of my own in that game

I thought that might have been the case Frog. And it goes to prove my point about the opposition list having the problem not the AX-1-0.  :agree:
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:36 am ]
Post subject:  Adjust the AX-1-0?
I encounter on average 500 points or so of flak and aircraft in games. The A-10 still is a terror as its very hard for ground flak to hit it and the skyrays provide excellent ground cover for them.
Author:  stompzilla [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:38 am ]
Post subject:  Adjust the AX-1-0?
Certainly.

That excuse just doesn't hold water.  An army that has no AA of any kind is a poor one and not something that should be used as a basis on which to build a list.

You could make exactly the same argument against ALL aircraft (Particulary marine aircraft) if you're basing your argument on the example of the opponant who has no AA.

Equally, you wouldn't make an argument against infantry based on an opponent's army that has no AP firepower.
Author:  Ginger [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Adjust the AX-1-0?
There are two reasons for the price:-
1. To reflect the relative rarity of these compared with other Tau A/c
2. To prevent potential abuse.

As to how to use A/c, it really depends on what you do with them. In the case of the "5 Aces" abuse, I tried to oppose this with Eldar containing 2x Falcons/Firestorm, Fireprisms and nightwings - and got rippped to shreds by them. The first attack was positioned on one or other army flank, to attack the edge of one of the Falcon formations so that only a maximum of one Firestorm can fire. This puts at least one BM on the formation and typically 2-3. The following A/c keep attacking the ground AA in the same flank until all Ground AA is supressed / destroyed. Any A/c are intercepted. Turn #2 you still have at least 4-5 T/S to repeat the attacks and start up on the other ground formations. By turn #3 The T/S have free reign over the battlefield.

The point is that these attacks are made against the edge of the AA umbrella with the deliberate aim of suppressing or destroying it - and the 45cm weapon range makes it quite easy to avoid most if not all enemy AA. And the result of this strategy is that there is little AA on the approach, and no ground AA left unsuppressed when disengaging - so the T/S end up with no BMs and free to repeat the strategy. On the other hand, enemy ground forces are suppressed or more usually broken, while enemy air has BMs (or been shot down)  and so is less effective.

So with the greatest respect to Dobbsy, Stompazilla and others, I suggest they really need to be at least 300 points.
Author:  tneva82 [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:18 am ]
Post subject:  Adjust the AX-1-0?
Quote: (stompzilla @ Sep. 22 2009, 01:38 )

Certainly.

That excuse just doesn't hold water.  An army that has no AA of any kind is a poor one and not something that should be used as a basis on which to build a list.

You could make exactly the same argument against ALL aircraft (Particulary marine aircraft) if you're basing your argument on the example of the opponant who has no AA.

Equally, you wouldn't make an argument against infantry based on an opponent's army that has no AP firepower.

Not all armies have effective flak however. Ork flakwagons are so crappy and short ranged to boot that unless you load every formation with over half a dozen of them(at which point your army will suck against non-air force armies while still having only mediocre AA...) they are BM adding only. Forget about actually hitting aircraft. That happens once in a blue moon.

And frankly IG hydra's aren't that useful either unless you have tons of them(and they kinda stick out like sore thumb among infantry formations being prime target for AT sniping...). Haven't seen them discourage even ork fighta bommers ever.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Adjust the AX-1-0?
As I am PDF less still could someone do me a favour and stick up the current a-10 stats?

As to the bat rep you linked to I'm amazed you were hit by flak. There were no interceptors and you faced 45cm flak. 45cm weapons always out range 45cm flak. If the board consisted of a long line of oblits your ground army should have concentrated on a section to let you through. If it was a big clump you should of clipped the edges until the flak was supressed/degraded enough to allow you to go for the big beasts.
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