I finally got to test out E&C's E1.08 last night.

Unfortunately, I found afterwards that I'd taken a slightly illegal list in regards to Core vs Support   - that's what happens when you write a list on the fly while talking to people at the club. I took one too many HH formations. So, this report is mainly going to be a highights package with some feedback rather than an official batrep. I'd also forgotten to take a camera and didn't write anything down due to meeting/talking to new folks at the club and not wanting to slow anything down due to time constraints.

Lists
Tau

Crisis + Crisis + SC 450
Mech FW + PF + Bonded Team + HH-R 500 BTS
Broadsides 300
Stealth 300
Recon 150
HH-R 350
HH-I + Skyray 450
Barracudas 150
AX-1-0 350

BL
something like

2x Retinue + Havocs + Oblits
1x Retinue + Havocs + Zerkers + Oblits
Terminators + oblits BTS
Lord of Battle
Bike Company
Armoured (4x LR) company

Overall
I really liked how the list played. It's very shooty if you can put the MLs on the enemy and just average when you don't. I'd obviously like to play it more versus different armies and opponents to see how it fares however.

Highlights

1st turn
FWs and PF (PF upgrade FTW!) initiate a Coord attack on a retinue with the crisis suits badly mauling and breaking it. Both formations were able to double and fire as the HH-I/Skyray formation was marking the retinue.
The HH-R and AX-1-0 all pour fire into the LoB but only the AX1-0 does any actual damage = 3DC but lost a plane to AA fire.

2nd turn
The LoB doubled into the centre of the table, and with the armoured company afterwards, killed all the FW/PF transports and 3 FWs - broken.
The HH-R and Broadsides shoot the LoB enough to break it with BMs but it remains in place due to fearless.
The recon group called a Coord on the bikes with the crisis and HH-I breaking them.
A nearby retinue shoots the crisis and destroys 3 units breaking them.
Just about everything on the board rallies except the LoB.

Turn 3
Teleport time. Terminators arrive behind the crisis suits hiding in the woods, the HH-I to their left and HH-R to their right - quite a target rch environment. Stealths spring their ambush and intercept, putting themselves between the termies and crisis.

Unfortunately for my opponent -"Daemonprince" - he rolled 3x 1's on the teleport and then rolled a 1 for initiative.
Breathing a sigh of relief, the Shas'o called a co-ord with the Stealths and HH-I. Firing on sustain with a markerlight gave them a 2+ Disrupt and 5 of them hit(one was suppressed from teleport). The crisis added to the tally with 3-4 more hits and by the time the HH-I fired the termies were reduced to 1 termie and 2 oblits and were broken. with no where to run due to the tight concentration of the tau, they ended up hugging the blitz on the Tau edge. The recently rallied FWs then shot them to death.

The broadsides, barracudas and HH-R shoot up the Markerlit Armoured company and kill 2 breaking it.

The last AX-1-0 braves the flak umbrella and manages to weave in to kill the LoB with another DC3 damage but gets shot down on leaving the table.

Tetras manage to double into the area in the triangle of death to capture the 2 non-blitz objectives.

End of turn Tau 2(BTS, TNH) BL 0

Feedback
Mech FWs- they are pretty good when they do get to shoot and the PF upgrade is incredibly helpful as it gives the FWs a great utility for the rest of the army and extra shooty. They don't stand up in the face of fire though and quickly become foot sloggers. My DFs never got to fire before dying.

AX-1-0 - I've used this squadron in just about every Tau game I've played in all the variations. It always has been, and still is, overpriced, underpowered and weak. It never fails to disappoint me slightly - but being the only true WE killer I am forced to take it.... If your opponent doesn't take WEs it's pretty worthless. Having half it's attack being guided missiles means you rarely get to fire half it's payload as MLs are not always available in the back of the table where WEs tend to sit. I would suggest dropping the GM from its weapon load or give it a ML (this goes for the barracudas as well). They aren't worth 350 points. They die far too easily with no RA and in most games I've played AA/flak accounts for this squadron nearly every single game. Also I'm not convinced they should be bomber, for that matter, at 350. If they were perhaps FBs they may have a better time avoiding flak and maybe worth 350 then - perhaps. If not, I would suggest 300 as a starter.

ML change - I like it. the extra +1 makes the Tau extremely shooty if you can bring the MLs to bear.

Skyray - overpriced. It really did nothing much more than any other ML. I can't see it needing the 25 point cost increase from what it was.

HH-I - please put it back in. I have 6 and they are extremely helpful for long range AP duties. They don't take away from FW duties, as they are for close in AP work. You can't  feasibly throw FWs forward and hope for them to survive and take out enemy infantry. The HH-I is a required unit IMO.

Bonded team - a nice additon to the FWs. it helped them reduce suppression when they did rally.

Stealth - definitely worth 300 points. The increased initiative, self ML ability and teleport and disrupt abilities are pretty good. Even with the AP4+ they can put AP2+ firepower on a target if they get initiative. That's a lot of BMs vs infantry.

PF upgrade - "Huzzah for the shop keep!"(Thanks Monty Burns!) This really is a great upgrade.

Loss of Fusion HH - "Missed it by that much Chief" (Thanks Max). Well I didn't get to try it, of course   . It bugs me no end as they could be a helpful unit for dealing with WEs and not force you to spend 350 points on an easily killed aircraft if you don't want to.... I implore you to reintroduce this E&C and at least let us try it before you s%1t-can it.

Last words
Do you know what I found incredibly insightful after all of this? And this should be carefully noted by E&C, Honda, CS and anyone else who has wondered how the Tau should and do play...

The Tau never left their half of their table half until turn 3....

It's still a gunline. You can't avoid it. It's how they function without strong assault capabilities or heavier armour saves. You can't throw them forward willy-nilly. They don't survive.

Thanks for doing a play test mate. A few points however. After playing 6 or 7 games with the list its my considered opinion that;

Skyray: I would probably not bother putting a Skyray in a HH formation. You pay a premium for the ML ability and its nearly always wasted by putting it in a formation that primarily wants to stay at long range and pop up from behind cover. IMHO they are better utilized in mech FW formations or if it stays a Fusion head formation. (I'll will be lobbying E&C for its retention). I consider 100 points about right based on my experience using them with mech FW's.

Ax-1-0: I find my opponents struggle to deal with these. They are long ranged and can maneuver around AA bubbles to take their shots if carefully measured. I consider them an automatic pick for 350 points. Don't forget that when Marker lit its primary weapon hits on 2+. As for its secondary weapons I find I use them almost every time it fires.

HH's: I agree with you about both HH variants.

Bonded team: For me they are rarely used. But I may just have been having bad luck using them. I had a terrible time rallying when I used them.

Stealth: agree

PF: agree. But only because they make non-mech FW worth considering. I prefer the skyray option for mech FW's. Cheaper ML unit and I usually have 5 formations with co-ordinated fire and even then rarely use it.

Gun Line: I very much disagree here. Its my experience that this list encourages the Tau player to move and act more aggressively. In fact one criticism that zombo and E&C have leveled at me was that I had been too mobile and not defensive enough. E&C's list actively encourages you to advance to within FF range of your opponent to bring maximum Fire Power to bear. I understand that you can't throw Tau formations forward on their own but if you have 2-3 formations carefully clustered to give mutual support your opponent will think before assaulting you. And it needs to be said again FW's are actually not bad in Assaults.

Any way thanks again for the play test. Its rewarding to see people outside our group take an active interest in using it. I hope you found it enjoyable.

Unfortunately, I found afterwards that I'd taken a slightly illegal list in regards to Core vs Support   - that's what happens when you write a list on the fly while talking to people at the club. I took one too many HH formations.

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AX-1-0 - I've used this squadron in just about every Tau game I've played in all the variations. It always has been, and still is, overpriced, underpowered and weak. It never fails to disappoint me slightly - but being the only true WE killer I am forced to take it.... If your opponent doesn't take WEs it's pretty worthless. Having half it's attack being guided missiles means you rarely get to fire half it's payload as MLs are not always available in the back of the table where WEs tend to sit. I would suggest dropping the GM from its weapon load or give it a ML (this goes for the barracudas as well). They aren't worth 350 points. They die far too easily with no RA and in most games I've played AA/flak accounts for this squadron nearly every single game. Also I'm not convinced they should be bomber, for that matter, at 350. If they were perhaps FBs they may have a better time avoiding flak and maybe worth 350 then - perhaps. If not, I would suggest 300 as a starter.

Sure, you can be aggressive. I am usually agressive. However, I don't need to leave my half to do it because the enemy is usually trying to get into my half to bring my forces into assault range. I see this as the "Patient Hunter" element actually. You wait for your opponent to get close to your ML units and then unleash your best.


Generally, I don't disagree with this. However, as I mentioned, an opponent is usually trying to get up close to the Tau as well, so there really is no need to cut your formations off from support of your other formations by throwing them into the opponent's half so early in a game. Also, you can't always throw 2-3 formations forward in support else they may get smashed by your opponent's massed forces coming the other way.  


I never assault with them. I always make sure I shoot with them. To do anything else invites their swift demise - at least in my games, I've found. You might break an enemy formation in a FF but the next enemy formation that's rolled up into position for the next activation may very well do so to you - or worse.

I noted in a post that has now gone blank: The Core/Support ratio should be 1:3, so the list was not illegal.


Aye I agree.

I believe my list proposal mixes the Patient Hunter and the Killing Blow styles somewhat equally, as opposed to the bias of the ERC list towards the Patient Hunter style.

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I hope no one minds but I thought I'd tack my own little batrep onto this one (seeing as we only got thru 1 and a half turns - my brother is unbearably slow sometimes...). It's a bit of a waste but I wanted to share what I thought of this list.

3000pts E&C1.08 vs Minervans (Raiders).

Tau

Mech Fire Warrior Cadre + Pathfinders + Skyray (BTS)
Crisis Suits + Supreme Commander
Crisis Suits + 2x Crisis Suits
Hammerheads (Rail)
Hammerheads (Ion) + Skyray
Broadsides
Stealth Suits
Recon Skimmer Group (3x Tetras, 3x Piranhas)
Recon Skimmer Group (3x Tetras, 3x Piranhas)
AX-1-0's

Minervans

Leman Russ Company (BTS)
Super-Heavy Company (3x Shadowswords) + Supreme Commander
Leman Russ Platoon
Vultures
Hydra Battery
Hydra Battery
Warhound Pack
Warhound

Deployment.

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I set the Recon Skimmer Groups up with Hammerheads and Crisis Suits in position to call Coordinated Fire if needed.

1st Turn.
Tau won initiative and let Minervans go first.
The Leman Russ Platoon moved forward and killed a lone Tetra.
The Broadsides went on Overwatch.
The 1st Hydra Battery moved across to support the Leman Russ'.
The FireWarrior Cadre moved up into a central position in ruins for cover.
The Leman Russ Company moved up next to the Platoon.
The large Crisis Suit Cadre Marched forward
With nothing to attack, the Vultures moved across to enforce the Leman Russ'.
The Crisis Suits with the Supreme Commander moved up behind some mountains to prepare to attack the Leman Russ' next turn.
The single Warhound moved up again to support the Leman Russ.
Now the Tau sprang their trap. The undamaged Recon Group doubled forward and fired on the unactivated Hydras killing one, breaking them. Next the AX-1-0's swooped in and attacked the markerlit Warhound pack, killing one of the Titans. The remaining broken Titan moved across to the Leman Russ'.
The Shadowswords moved out into the open and killed 2 Piranhas.
The RailHeads moved and fired their Seeker Missiles on the broken Hydras, killing them all.
The remaining Recon Group moved to light up the Shadowswords and placed a blast marker.
The Ion Heads moved into the center of the board and put another blast marker on the Shadowswords.






The AX-1-0's left unscathed.
All Minervan formations rallied to remove blast markers but both Tau Recon groups failed to clear their BM's

2nd Turn.
Minervans win Strategy roll.

The Shadowswords Double away from the Tau, round behind the Leman Russ' (this really irked my brother - not being able to fire their weapons and having to run away as they were markerlit by Tetras).
The Mech. FireWarriors went on Overwatch.
The Lemnan Russ Company doubles forward and fires on the Mech. FireWarriors killing 2 Devilfish.
The Recon Group that had been shadowing the Shadowswords, Doubled over to the Leman Russ Company and placed a BM. The Supremem Commander and his Crisis Suit Cadre moved into the woods and caught the Leman Russ' in a crossfire (with the previously moved Recon Group), killing 2 Lemans and then moving back away from any counter attack (I love Tau Jumpack rule).


Unfortunately this is where we had to call the game as we had run out of time.

My thoughts - I have to admit that I REALLY loved the maneuvrability of the Tau army. I was in the enemies deployment zone (with ML's) on the 1st turn. The AX-1-0's killing the Warhound was very Tau (and is pretty much the first time I've had them get off the board unscathed in about 7 games using them). I'm still learning how to use them (and to not be so aggresive with them, they are not tough enough to fly into flak unscathed).

My opponent has been playing the game as long as I have but he doesn't play as often, so I still regard him as learning the game. He didn't enjoy facing the AX-1-0's but after a small chat as we were packing up, I think he has more of an idea how to handle them.

Overall, I really enjoyed using this list. I found myself being a lot more aggresive than I have been using the previous lists. The combination of ML's and overwatching Seeker Missiles was interesting and allowed me to move about a lot more than I thought I would have been able.

All up, I'm looking forward to actually having a full game with this list and I'd like to see it continue development (along with the Armoured list).
Good onya E&C.

Cheers,
Steve.

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That's gorgeous!

More once i've actually had a read, i've gotten as far as looking at the pictures and making a mass of drool on my desk.  *Jealous*

Very cool.

I'm glad you're having fun with the proposal.

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Have you ever considered garrisoning the broadsides?  I quite like to do this, putting them on overwatch to seal up a flank, especially when combined with a recon unit or two and gets them into a good position, in cover, and able to fire from the very first activation (No-matter who gets it).

That was a very nice little ambush with the AX-1-0s and the recon group on the warhounds.  I think i'm going to start taking 3 Pirahnas in my recon groups too.  Also i'd never considered putting GM bearing units on overwatch and using the missiles when a unit comes into ML range - that's very devious and a useful addition to the Tau bag of tricks.

How do you think the game would have progressed had you been able to complete 3 turns?  I know through experience of playing guard with my eldar that they are a very resilient army and if your assault on them stalls or lets up for a minute they can punish you quite badly.  Do you think you could have sustained the momentum of your push?

The Broadsides were garrisoned on Overwatch (see the deployment photo). It's an obvious tactic with a slow moving formation like that. I only put them on Overwatch again to eat up an activation (I usually steer clear of this sort of tactic... just doesn't feel right to me) as I wanted to get the Guard moving first to see where the weakness would be that I could exploit with an activation advantage.

I think I got the GM/ML Overwatch thing from Clausewitz. It's a very handy ability.

I think I could have maintained my attack but that may be more down to my opponents inexperience than my own tactical ability. I'm really looking forward to playing another game as soon as possible to see how different players deal with this list.

Cheers.

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Nice "half rep"  


I would heartily agree here, but of course they haven't actually changed in this respect. They've really always been zippy. The only true change to the Tau with E&Cs proposal is the list design i.e the way you purchase your units now etc. I for one really like it's design. I've been playing about on paper with army lists and I'm very happy with it's design. Personally, I'm really looking forward to using the fusion HHs I have. I think they will provide much needed WE hunting possibilities.

The only 3 points of concern/question/doubt I have with 1.09 are:

1/As I've already mentioned, my issue with the cost of the AX1-0 squadron - make it a FB; or drop its cost; or make it RA; or something. It's waaaay too easy to kill for it's points cost.

2/No MW FF for crisis - I'm not sure if you'll even considered this for the list but I still think it would be very helpful and common sense. I'll have to live without it if you're dead-set against it of course.

3/Not sure the Skyray formation is warranted, or that useful - on paper it just looks like a lot of eggs in one basket. Even if you add HHs to it, the formation sort of "over-performs" in that you have 3 MLs with only a little bit of shooting. But I haven't tried it of course so this may not even pan out the way I see it panning out.

I actually meant that I felt more reward for using that maneuvrability (even though, due to the reduction in the to-hit numbers, there isn't really any benefit).

I agree that the AX-1-0 is fragile. It simply cannot be used until the AA has been dealt with, which sometimes is a problem (Revenant Titans for example). FB might be useful but I wouldn't want yo see them get RA.

MW FF on Crisis Suits - I heartily agree with that (it's just common sense).

I can't imagine ever using the Skyray formation (I don't like to have all my AA eggs in one basket). It would certainly provide a no-go zone for enemy air units!

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I could see them dropping by 50 points... but they are really superb; if you can knock out the enemy AA you effectively have two unkillable Shadowswords to which LOF can never be blocked...


Putting back MW FF for Crisis Suits gives the Tau an excellent Firefight formation, better than Land Speeders (MWFF5+, 4+ armour save) due to their better armour and much better ranged shooting.

I'd say, you can have the MW shot at range, or the MWFF shot, but definitely not both.


Can't say as I'd ever use it either, but it is there for completeness' sake. It does have a point discount for taking them in a group mind you.

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