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[AMHC] Base four instead of base six
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15174		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Chroma [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  [AMHC] Base four instead of base six
Okay, taking this from comments in the 5.1 DRAFT thread:

Would it even be a consideration of having the AMHC be a base of four Hammerheads for 250 points, so then it can be upgraded to the usual six for the same cost as it is now?  

That way people with "four-strong" formations of Ionheads, or what-have-you, still have a playable formation... and doesn't penalize "gravheads" either.

And the "4-strong" AMHC could always be 275 if that's really a concern.

To me, starting at a base of four units seems an answer to the people who want all tanks *and* the people who would like a smaller Hammerhead formation... imagine that, two *different* groups of Tau players happy at the same time!  *LAUGH*
Author:  Honda [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  [AMHC] Base four instead of base six
Not to steer this either way, but do keep in mind that they come in packs of 3.
Author:  Chroma [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  [AMHC] Base four instead of base six
Quote: (Honda @ 18 Mar. 2009, 13:35 )

Not to steer this either way, but do keep in mind that they come in packs of 3.

Yes, which means if you start with four, you can easily have six with the upgrade... so, you've got options.

The "Hammerhead Upgrade" is just +2 Hammerheads, so you're still got a "spare" if you start with a base of six... or wish to add Hammerheads to a different formation.  (These "spares" are the heart of my desire for "variable" sized upgrades... example: with the current (?) packaging of the Recon skimmers, I've got two spare Tetras that I can't use at all.)


Four Hammerheads and a Skyray was a common formation in the pre-v5.x world... so, people, like Dobbsy, who've been fielding 4-strong formations of Ionheads would still be able to do that.
Author:  Ginger [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:51 pm ]
Post subject:  [AMHC] Base four instead of base six
Well, to put the alternative view, 5x HH for 325 with an upgrade of a single HH for +75, (2x HH for 125) gives a cheaper base formation than the current 375 while avoiding a 'popcorn' style HH army of 12x formations of four HH each. Part of the issue here is the relative costs of alternative formations and the 'bang-for-your-buck' questions. The 75cm railgun provides lots of long-range shots that are really only vulnerable to SM drop armies.

As an aside here, while I do understand the 'pack of 3' point, IMHO this should be much lower on the list of design criteria, especially as there is already the option of adding them as upgrades
Author:  zombocom [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:42 pm ]
Post subject:  [AMHC] Base four instead of base six
The peer review was cited as the reason for this change, but my reading of it is very clear that the peer review was against the HH cadre, not the support formation.
Author:  Honda [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  [AMHC] Base four instead of base six
The peer review was cited as the reason for this change, but my reading of it is very clear that the peer review was against the HH cadre, not the support formation.

That is a true statement. However, upon further discussions, the issue came down to reducing access to Hammerheads. The first choice was removing the cadre, the second the support choice.

As stated earlier, or I guess in the other thread, given the other factors, the decision was made to leave the HH cadre as a core and drop the support choice.

I have basically ended the discussion on this topic in the other thread and I apologize if my earlier comment led you to believe that I thought additional discussion was warranted.

It's not. This is a "design" issue and we are past that point for this phase. If you want ot keep track of this issue and bring it up again after the test phase, we can discuss. However, so that someone doesn't go off and write a Phd dissertation on this topic, when we open up the discussion for the next set of refinements, any new proposals will have to provide the following:

1. Address an observed failure or imbalance in the list
2. Come with play test proof that clearly demonstrates the issue

This sort of discussion in and of itself is not bad, but given the stage of development we are in, will only lead us to go down the same path that 4.x series went. We're not going to go there.

So, let's start to get ourselves ready to turn our creative juices towards the sword vs. the pen.

Cheers,
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:31 pm ]
Post subject:  [AMHC] Base four instead of base six
Honda, can you give some guidance on how long you want the test phase to run? It would be nice to have some sort of time frame to work in.
Author:  Irondeath [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  [AMHC] Base four instead of base six
I can´t speak for Honda, but presumably that would depend on people actually playtesting the CURRENT LISTS, not their favourite homebrew amendments, instead of arguing endlessly over minutiae.

But that´s just MHO.
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:32 pm ]
Post subject:  [AMHC] Base four instead of base six
My 2 cents? Drop the cadre for this list and make 4 a support choice. Then bring back 6 as a cadre for an armoured list.
Author:  Mephiston [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  [AMHC] Base four instead of base six
Honda, this isn't in the tech edit thread. Its in its own and we are all spit balling here. I will continue to play 5.1 once its released.

Won't stop people talking or complaining!
Author:  Chroma [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  [AMHC] Base four instead of base six
Quote: (Honda @ 18 Mar. 2009, 21:11 )

If all you want to do is theorize and debate, then that's fine by me. I'll take the list and work with the Epic UK team and we'll get the job done. I know they have plenty of people willing to focus on the real work.

It takes a lot to offend me on the Internet, Honda, but you hit the button square on the mark.

What the hell does this mean?  I've posted three Tau battle reports in the past three weeks, all my comments are based on experiences *within* those games, and you've got the audacity to say I'm not focusing on "the real work"?!  I've got an Eldar vs Tau fight lined up for this evening, but maybe you don't need it now.

I certainly haven't seen any reports from you lately, in fact, the "trial lists" you've posted have been riddled with errors, so it shows a lack of playing the list properly.

Care to put your money where you mouth is?

ASIDE - MAN, what is it about developing Tau that gets everyone (even me!) so hot and bothered?!?  :O
Author:  Dobbsy [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:  [AMHC] Base four instead of base six
However, upon further discussions, the issue came down to reducing access to Hammerheads
There actually is a limitation on HH's as a support group - the fact you can't take more than 2 groups per cadre which means you can't popcorn them BTW.

If you want ot keep track of this issue and bring it up again after the test phase, we can discuss
No worries, this is what I'm doing here so I don't forget my argument now.

any new proposals will have to provide the following:

1. Address an observed failure or imbalance in the list
2. Come with play test proof that clearly demonstrates the issue
Firstly, Honda, can you explain what an "observed failure" is supposed to be? I see it that the fact that being unable to take a 4 unit HH formation is an observed failure in the list as, well, I can't take a 4 strong formation. As you mention, peer review supported removal of the AMHC not the support group.... you chose to do the opposite which seems an observed failure in at least the design.(this isn't an attack on you, just how I see it).
Secondly, providing playtest proof for this issue isn't possible because it is not about play, it's about list design. I can't put 4 HH on the table to playtest if I'm not legally allowed to....
Author:  Honda [ Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  [AMHC] Base four instead of base six
Chroma, please accept my apology.

I shouldn't have burned you in your thread. I should have kept my cool.

So let me express myself better. I am concerned that a lot of the debating that I see going on will distract the effort. I am especially concerned that we stay on focus and not get off the path. Given that we are not going to make any structural changes to the list until we conclude the upcoming testing phase, I personally do not understand the direction that discussions are taking.

There. That is my issue. I do want all of us to succeed.

And yes, you have been putting in solid efforts in regards to playtesting and I know that I've looked like an idiot a couple of times.

Again, my apologies.
Author:  zombocom [ Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:18 am ]
Post subject:  [AMHC] Base four instead of base six
Honda: Regardless of your opinions, we will continue to put forward ideas and spitball them throughout your testing phase. You're just going to have to live with it. Feel free to ignore it, but please stop trying to shut down every discussion, it's rude.
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