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Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
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Quote: (Lion in the Stars @ 05 Mar. 2009, 21:59 )
Since this is supposed to be an infantry discussion, let's look at the Dev+(HB)RB+Hunter (425) supporting Assault Marines (175). For our comparison victims, I'm going to pick on an IG Infantry Company, with no attached support units, and no units within support range (everyone's favorite target). While the Hunter doesn't have any targets, there are only 3 units in the Marine list that can take an AA upgrade, so he's there for 'realism'. For the sake of discussion, I'll start with the most favorable comparison for the attackers, the Advance. Devs advance to within 15cm of the enemy and hop out of the RBs, then open fire. RBs give 4xAP4+, Devs throw 8xAP5+. That's 2+2.67 hits, and the 5+ cover save means 3.11 dead IG. Assault Marines Retain and Engage, with 4xCC3+; Devs give 4xFF3+ and 4xFF5+ in support. That's 2.67CC hits, and 4FF hits. 5+ cover save means 2.66 Dead IG from the firefight, total of 5.67 dead IG. IG counterattack, get 7 stands+command on the Marines and 2 stands FF, 1.5 CC hits, .67FF hits, Marine armor saves .75+.33, for 1 Marine dead. Resolution is SM7:IG3, should be about 5 autohits on the IG, completely wiping them out.
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Obviously, Marines are better at assaults.  Perhaps I should have used a Mech Infantry company instead?
A mech infantry company is 1HQ+12IG+7Chimera (400 points), and it will be supporting a Stormtrooper Platoon in Valkyries (8+4, 350 points) in an attack on that same hapless foot IG company in the Woods (yes, it sucks to be the training dummies).  So, MechCoy drives up, jumps out of the tracks, and shoots at the foot IG.  That's 7xAP6+ from the infantry, and 2xAP6+ per Chimera, for a total of 21xAP6+=3.5 hits.  5+ cover save means that's 2.33 kills, 3.33BMs before the assault goes in.  Stormtroopers lose out on their 4BP Disrupt shot, since they're Engaging.  Instead, they deliver 8xFF4+ and 4xFF5+ personally, with 13xFF5+ and 7xFF5+ =20xFF5+ in support!  That's 4 hits from the Stormtroopers, and 8 hits from their transports and supporting company.  5+ cover save means 'only' 8 IG die.  10.67IG shoot at the Stormtroopers, and get 3.55 hits, 2.33ish kills on the Stormtroopers.  Resolution is ST10, IG3, which will kill the 2.67 remaining IG outright, even if the Stormtroopers roll double ones and the IG rolls a six.  Is it unlikely to get everyone within 15cm like that?  Not with an assault like the stormtroopers landing behind the position! Steel Legion Infantry Company (250 points) dug-in, Tau send 2x Firewarrior Cadres (300 each) to remove them to allow other operations. 13 IG units in woods, Tau do a basic Retain to blast them out. Let's assume that all the Dfish get close enough to shoot. [snip incorrect math] 32xAP6+ and 8x AP5+, for 5.33+2.67=8 hits total, 5+ cover save means 5.33 dead guard. Not quite enough BMs to break the 7.67 survivors (you should break the IG one time in 3), and that's 600 on 250, outpointing 2.4 to 1 (which should be just enough to chase the IG out of the woods).
If you want to math-hammer it, then I have a number of objections to your examples.
First, this is 600 points rather than the 750 you're using for IG. It should be better.
Second, and most importantly, Tau should assault in this situation. It makes tactical sense. I've done similar kinds of math hammer and it's overwhelmingly obvious that this is precisely the unusual situation in which Tau should launch assaults but no one seems to be able to drop the "Tau should never assault" mentality.
Redoing it with an assault... 2.67 kills from the first FW formation. We'll round down to make it easy. 11 IG with 3 BMs remain. When the second FW formation assaults, it's 16 5+FF shots and 8 6+FF shots for 6.67 hits for ~4.5 kills. IG get 11 shots at 5+FF for 2.5 kills. Tau outnumber, with +2 for BMs and +2 for kills = +5 resolution. There might be a 2 or 3 IG troopers left, instead of a total wipeout, but I think we can call it pretty darn close, especially since we rounded down early on.
In other words, the 600 point Tau fire/assault was almost as good as the 750 point IG fire/assault.
Third, even if you insist that Tau are not allowed to assault and absolutely must shoot ranged fire for the purposes of comparison, you're biasing it against the Tau. Your examples assume that the Stormtroopers are "landing behind the [enemy] position". Obviously, if that happens then the second FW formation has crossfire.
That crossfire makes a big difference. Taking those 4 hits from the second FW formation from 5+ saves to 6+ saves and adding the bonus BM from crossfire means 6 dead IG and 9 BMs (6 casualty, 2 under fire, 1 crossfire), which more than breaks the remaining 7 IG. It's not as strong as the fire/assault combo but the Tau aren't sitting there with a damaged and suppressed formation, either.
Going back to an earlier objection about how that makes the Tau formation vulnerable, the FW are not any more exposed doing that than the IG Stormtroopers would be with their wraparound assault. If you assume it's okay for the Troopers, it should not only be okay for FW but it will be better. The Tau will always be stronger than the Troopers in the same position because the Tau won't take damage and BMs from the assault.
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Neal
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perhaps then we should all just shut up and play some then??? Let the ACs make the decisions and formulate from there once they get a decent amount of feedback (decidedly lacking), not ideas or math-hammer??? 
