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[Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=15041		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:41 pm ]
Post subject:  [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
Okay, I've been trying to decide what to purchase next for my Tau... more tanks, of course, and, while I like the look of the Ion Cannon Hammerhead, I can think of no reason to take it instead of the Railcannon... better range and a tougher AT shot easily over-power slightly improved AP fire; back when the Ion also had AA shots, it was an excellent choice, but now, it's rubbish.  Tau have tonnes of other *better* and *cheaper* anti-infantry units.

So, other than, "I've already got the models", why would you take Ion Cannons?

Might I suggest that the "base" models of any Hammerhead formation consist of Ion Cannon Hammerheads and that they could be individually upgraded to Railcannons for a small increase in points?

I mean, the Ion Cannon' stats *could* be improved, but it's current stats do seem to reflect its 40k power quite well, so I don't think that's a viable option.

So, thoughts?
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
Just so the stats are right here for everyone to discuss:

Code Sample: 
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Railgun 75cm AP5+/AT3+ -

OR

Ion Cannon 60cm AP4+/AT4+ -
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:57 pm ]
Post subject:  [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
I would say looking at those stats, AP3+ would probably make them equivalent from a game balance perspective and I don't know that it would be that out-of-whack. That said, you ever seen a hammerhead with an Ion Cannon in 40K either? That's because they suck compared with the railgun!

You could also drop the AP value on the Railgun.

What are the exact stats for the two weapons in 40K?
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
No reason.  The list is overrun with AP fire.  Shorter range on the Ion Cannon to gain AP value is not a good trade from the perspective of the army as a whole.  Also, the secondary weapons on the Hammerheads lean more towards an AT role so picking an AP main weapon waters down their focus.  Between the two it's just more efficient to take AT-oriented Hammerheads and leave the AP to other formations.
Author:  vytzka [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
Actually it's stats are already quite a bit better than 40k equivalent in comparison with the rest (no way it's an AT4+ shot) so I agree that it's not a good way to go about this.

I like starting with baseline Ionheads and upgrading them to Railheads for a premium.
Author:  vytzka [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:07 pm ]
Post subject:  [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
Quote: (Lord Inquisitor @ 05 Mar. 2009, 21:57 )

What are the exact stats for the two weapons in 40K?

Railgun: 72", S10 AP1 or S6 AP4 large blast (I've also been told that it was pinning but 5e rulebook end summary doesn't mention it).

Ion cannon: 60" S7 AP3 Heavy 3.
Author:  asaura [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
I've got the models. They are painted and based, in a box. They never come out. When I use HH's, their job is long-range AT.
Author:  zombocom [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
Ions definately need to be cheaper than rails.
Author:  Mephiston [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:28 pm ]
Post subject:  [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
Like everyone else I wouldn't.
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
Okay. Possibilities are:

1) Dump the ion cannon as far as stats are concerned. (Annoying as there's an extant model).
2) Fiddle the points to make the ion cannon attractive. (Very messy army-list)
3) Fiddle the stats to make the ion cannon attractive. (Need to keep some consistencies within the list and with 40k).

So, with regard to option 3, your possibilities are:
a) Make the railgun worse
b) Make the ion cannon better
c) Both

Making the railgun worse - you can drop the AP altogether. You'll be ignoring the blast capability of the railgun in 40K. Given that this is an ammunition subtype, it's hardly criminal and making it purely AT3+ gels with the broadsides (which have only got AT power). You can then call the Hammerhead weapon a "Railgun" with AP3+ and the Broadsides weapon "Twin-linked railguns" with AT2+, making the list a little more internally consistent as far as naming of weapons and profiles are concerned. I think this is justified in giving railguns a defined role.

The ion cannon can definately be AP3+. It's a whole heap better than a heavy bolter or an assault cannon against heavy infantry.

Making the ion cannon AP3+/AT5+ (or /AT4+) and the railgun AT3+ would at least give some pause to consider the versetility of the ion cannon.
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:07 pm ]
Post subject:  [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
What about something like this:

Armoured Mobile Hunter Cadre    315 points
6 Ion Cannon Hammerhead Gunships
-any number of Hammerhead Gunships may replace their Ion Cannons with Railcannons for +10 points each

Simple, and gets to the "current" points for all Railheads quite nicely... and a single Railcannon brings it up to a nice 325.

And the Ion Cannons are cool looking models, so I think they should have a place in the list.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:17 pm ]
Post subject:  [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
It would probably be better to use a pricing scheme along the lines of "3 railguns for 25, 6 for 50" - keep the numbers in consistent increments and stop min-max.  They're sold in packs of 3 anyway.

That said... I doubt that the difference in capability is quite that much.  That's ~15% price difference, which equates to about a 30% difference in firepower for the unit as a whole.  The Railgun is better but even taking into account the AP-o-plenty context that's stretching it.
Author:  Lord Inquisitor [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
I liked the two-datafax idea, or just the tweaking of the weapons themselves.
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  [Hammerheads] Why would you take an Ion Cannon?
Quote: (nealhunt @ 05 Mar. 2009, 21:17 )

It would probably be better to use a pricing scheme along the lines of "3 railguns for 25, 6 for 50" - keep the numbers in consistent increments and stop min-max.  They're sold in packs of 3 anyway.

Then you've got to consider the Hammerhead Support Cadre as well... which is an out-of-step four Hammerheads.
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