I don't remember talking about the Ion Cannon at all....
Maybe I'm just getting old
.I'm certainly interested in it's stats though so I'll read on.
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| Ion Cannon stats http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=14591 |
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| Author: | shmitty [ Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Ion Cannon stats |
I wanted to split this from the Air Caste stats as it covers more than just Air Caste units and I didn't want to muddy the waters too much. Hena and Onyx both inquired about the Ion Cannon stats. And what are the stats for the Ion Cannon now? 4.4.1 lists them as 60cm 2x AP4+/AT5+ in the Hammerhead entry. In the 4.4.3 list the are 60cm AP4+/AT4+, which seems better than its effectiveness in 40k would let on. AP4+ seems good, but the AT4+ seems inflated, the Ion Cannon is certainly not better at killing tanks than a Lascannon after all. The statline Onyx posted and others (at one point the Ion Cannon gave an AA6+ shot) are all in an attempt to balance it with the Railgun on the Hammerhead, which has caused it to be over represented. If we follow the fluff and the 40k stats, the Railgun is a much better weapon than the Ion Cannon and by trying to make them equivalent we are losing consistency with our sources. For whatever reason, this bugs the heck out of me. In the Air Caste thread I was treating the Ion Cannon as having AP4+/AT5+ which seemed appropriate, although really even AT6+ is arguable. I would LOVE to see the HH adjusted so that the Railgun version cost more than the Ion Cannon and they both were representative of the background. However, I realize that this likely bothers no one but me. If that is the case, I will drop it. |
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| Author: | Honda [ Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Ion Cannon stats |
If we follow the fluff and the 40k stats, the Railgun is a much better weapon than the Ion Cannon and by trying to make them equivalent we are losing consistency with our sources. Actually, that's not entirely correct. I played Mech Tau in 40K for a long time and heavy slots were either one Ion cannon HH/2 Railgun HH or 2 Ion cannon HH/1 Railgun HH. The S10 on the rail gun is quite powerful, but it is only one shot. Depending on the opponent type, you may make the decision to field two Ion cannons because the 3 x S7 AP 3 shots at 60 inches is very powerful. Except for 13 armor or Landraiders/Monoliths, the Ion cannon will tear up lots of vehicles. I think a multiple of AT5+ is reasonable. |
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| Author: | Onyx [ Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Ion Cannon stats |
I don't remember talking about the Ion Cannon at all.... Maybe I'm just getting old .I'm certainly interested in it's stats though so I'll read on. |
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| Author: | shmitty [ Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Ion Cannon stats |
Quote: (Onyx @ 16 Jan. 2009, 23:11 ) I don't remember talking about the Ion Cannon at all....  Maybe I'm just getting old  .I'm certainly interested in it's stats though so I'll read on. Sorry Onyx, I should have said Black Legion. |
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| Author: | Ginger [ Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Ion Cannon stats |
Actually, I think it would be really helpfull to have the stats for all the various vehicle weapons listed, both to discuss them as a whole and to compare and contrast them with other weapons across E:A. I have a horrible feeling that the desire to match the stats to 40k and the 'fluff' has contributed more than anything else to the delays in the list. |
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| Author: | Honda [ Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Ion Cannon stats |
Ginger, I wasn't offering the stats so that we could match them, only to indicate that the Ion cannon is a very effective weapon when used properly. |
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| Author: | shmitty [ Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Ion Cannon stats |
Sure Honda, and you are right, AT5+ is very appropriate. |
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| Author: | Soren [ Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Ion Cannon stats |
Quote: (shmitty @ 17 Jan. 2009, 01:58 ) Sure Honda, and you are right, AT5+ is very appropriate. Lascannon is quite more powerful and only AT5+. I disagree that Ioncannons should be equal lascannons when killing Tanks. For this task you have rails. Ions can´t even touch a Landraider for example and even a Predator is hard to kill in 40k. stick them at 6+, twinlinked 5+ and give them 60cm range. They are quite good in killing infantry, equal good as assault cannons which have AP5+. My stats would be: AP5+/AT6+ 60cm which is exactly the stat-range of primary weaponry all other races have. All other things are WAY too good compared with similar weapons. edit: even compared with a battlecannon the ioncannon looses out in tank killing power and anti infantry duty. I think that should be noted. my 0,002 cent (sorry for comparing with 40K but in this case you should have some knowledge how weapons are used in the main game) |
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| Author: | CyberShadow [ Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Ion Cannon stats |
Yes, the stats that jump out (AP, strength) are only half of the story in 40K. The Ion Cannon is a serious problem for even heavy infantry units in ways that the Rail Cannon is not. Changing the stats to not give parity would require a cost change, and lead to the RailHeads having an upgrade points cost. In addition, this upgrade points cost would be relatively small, and we would be looking at (most likely) 5 pt increases per RailHead. This gets fiddly very quickly. My personal opinion is that I would rather have a general representation of the two weapons which may not be 100 percent accurate but which conveys the different types and keeps the EA list simpler. (I am more irritated by the different secondary weapons on the IonHead and RailHead models!  )
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| Author: | shmitty [ Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Ion Cannon stats |
Quote: (CyberShadow @ 17 Jan. 2009, 11:07 ) Yes, the stats that jump out (AP, strength) are only half of the story in 40K. The Ion Cannon is a serious problem for even heavy infantry units in ways that the Rail Cannon is not. Indeed, which is why i think that that the Ion Cannon should definitely stay AP4+ and the Railgun only AP5+ Changing the stats to not give parity would require a cost change, and lead to the RailHeads having an upgrade points cost. In addition, this upgrade points cost would be relatively small, and we would be looking at (most likely) 5 pt increases per RailHead. This gets fiddly very quickly. Well, what about something like this: Ion Cannon 60cm AP4+/AT5+ Railgun 75cm (Solid shot) AT4+ Lance Submunition AP5+ This could be done as an upgrade. You could substitute 3 Railguns for Ion Guns for 25 Points. (going with the fact that FW gives us the things in 3's making it very convenient.) (I am more irritated by the different secondary weapons on the IonHead and RailHead models! ) Which would be fair to represent as well I think. |
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| Author: | Lion in the Stars [ Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Ion Cannon stats |
Except that the railhead has 2x Burst cannons (15cm AP5+), not Gun Drones (15cm AP5+ Disrupt for the two drones). I'm not sure how to handle the railhead/ionhead imbalance... |
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| Author: | Onyx [ Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Ion Cannon stats |
Quote: (Hena @ 18 Jan. 2009, 02:00 ) Quote: (shmitty @ 17 Jan. 2009, 20:44 ) Railgun      75cm  (Solid shot)     AT4+   Lance                   Submunition    AP5+ That would be too fiddly and relatively pointless. Epic != 40k. If Railhead is that much better, then it would be easy to replace railheads SMS to Gun Drones AP5+ shot. There, balanced. Not interested at all in Burst Cannons instead of SMS's on Rail Heads. It makes no sense for the purpose of the Rail Head. It is not meant to get that close to the enemy so Burst Cannons would not be an efficient design. Of couse in 40K it's a different story but we don't play 40K (thank God), this is Epic! We can live with whatever FW put on the models but we don't play WYSIWYG here. No change to the Rail Head needed. Ion Heads are obviously not as effective (in general) but the difference is not that huge. The Minervan list does a pretty good job of pricing the Leman Russ variants, could that be used as a template for Hammerheads? |
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| Author: | Honda [ Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Ion Cannon stats |
Ion Heads are obviously not as effective (in general) but the difference is not that huge. The Minervan list does a pretty good job of pricing the Leman Russ variants, could that be used as a template for Hammerheads? I don't know that the Hammerheads will be in scope for this release. We still have some big fish to fry so let's stay focused and if we have some time before the code freeze, then we may give them a quick review. But I'm not going to promise that at this point. |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Ion Cannon stats |
In my WeaponTable the Railgun and Ion Cannon have the following stats: Railgun 75cm AP5+/AT5+ Lance(only for the AT shot) Ion Cannon 60cm AP4+/AT6+ Resoning for the Ion Cannon stats is, that their stats are similar to the Autocannon but has better Armourpiercing and one more shot. This is quite more effective than the Autocannon against (heavy)Infantry but still inferior to the Lascannon. |
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