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Number of Tau units vs others
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Author:  Dobbsy [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:45 am ]
Post subject:  Number of Tau units vs others
I was curious and just did a check on the number of unit types in the various armies out there.

I think people are incorrectly making a big issue about the number of unit types in the Tau list.

Perhaps their issue is actually that the Tau have a lot of options - the upgrades section makes the list larger, agreed, but they don't have too many units per se.

I say this because here is the unit no. breakdown for most armies. These numbers don't take into account character types in each army, but do include titans, aircraft and spacecraft

Necron: 17
Dark Eldar: 24
Orks: 26
IG(Steel Legion): 27
Marines: 29
Tau(4.4.2): 34
Eldar: 37
Black Legion: 38


Number of unit types doesn't seem too bad when in actual comparison, eh...? Should we perhaps not make that much of a big deal about it now?
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Number of Tau units vs others
Tau
23 Formations (the spaceships count as one)
16+ upgrades (as other stuff includes optional upgrades, some are multiple etc)
32 units and 3 Characters

Black Legion
13 Formations
12 Upgrades
26 units, 3 Characters and 9 demons

Marines
19 Formations
10+ upgrades
28 units and 1+ characters

Guard
20 Formations
8 Upgrades
31 units and 1 character

Siege
15 Formations
6 Upgrades
22 Units and 1 character

But even this isn't the whole picture. The Tau then have lots of options that make other formations redundant. Far more I think than the other lists.
Every list also has stuff it doesn't use commonly, I wonder what it would look like as a comparison then?

Tau have multiple formations capable of doing each job, in marked contrast to other lists that have for some roles none, 1 or only general purpose units.

But really what seems to emerge is the Tau have more formations and upgrades than other lists, giving rise to all the perception of having so much, and of course a fair amount of redundancy.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Number of Tau units vs others
Interesting TRC but don't discount that Tau upgrades are essentially repeats of most of the formations types thus only increasing the size of formations not just their make up. Also don't forget that with 4.4.3 auxilia are limited

Every list also has stuff it doesn't use commonly
Wouldn't this then just mean it's all fairly similar? i.e if Marines have X redundancies and Tau have X redundancies then they both have X redundancies. Why would we be concerned?

Tau have multiple formations capable of doing each job, in marked contrast to other lists that have for some roles none, 1 or only general purpose units
See I see this as the fact that you're still spending the same points as other lists it's just you use a different model to do it. If other lists have only one type of unit to do a specific job they would by more of that unit if they need it done more. If  unit type A is doing the same job as unit type B for the same points then what does it matter? My answer - you get to paint different models! which I love btw :laugh:

Look I agree they have a lot of upgrade types. It could be reduced somewhat and force a more stricter build on the list - my proposal

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/forums....=265773

addressed this somewhat and i had a few reductions in what support formations could take what upgrades etc. Have a look and compare it to the 4.4.2 list and see what I mean. ;)
Author:  blackhorizon [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Number of Tau units vs others
Wouldn't Tau have more by nature as they include all kind of auxilaries? I mean this is what Tau are. I would assume they use gue'vesa, kroot and others above own Tau in a ground fight.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Number of Tau units vs others
Quote: (Dobbsy @ 17 Sep. 2008, 10:40 )

If  unit type A is doing the same job as unit type B for the same points then what does it matter? My answer - you get to paint different models! which I love btw :laugh:

Thats great - in theory.

In practice one of those options is the best, whether independently or as part of an army build. The more overlap there is the more difficult it is to price things and balance them.

Take Stingrays and Skorpfish.

250 points Skorp DC3 RA5+ - 6.75 hits to kill, chance of crit, threat of multi tk, can block los

300 points Skyray, 4 stingrays, Armour 5+ (sky has 4+) - 8 hits to kill, has markerlights, firepower degrades under fire.

Both skimmers, move 25.
Skorp 3 FF attacks 6+, sting has 5 FF attacks 6+

Rays
5 SMS, 30cm AP5+ IC
2 hunter, 60cm, AA5+
6 GMs 75cm, AT6+
4 GMs, 75cm, AP5+ IC

Skorp
2 mis, 45cm AP4+/AT4+
2 hunter, 60cm, AA5+
then
4 gm MW6+
or
6 GMs 75cm, AT6+
or
6 GMs, 75cm, AP5+ IC

Which do you consider the superior choice? To me the tougher more firepower option wins out every time, especially as I have other options for tk attacks.

You can then throw in Mech firewarriors and do the comparison.

Sadly the days of ultra powerful stingrays are over :(

Getting stuff balanced becomes hard and harder the more units you have that do each others job.

Really its a list packed with great ideas, but all at the same time, rather than in separate lists giving each a distinct flavour.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Number of Tau units vs others
Come on Hena, you can do better than that example, there are a million posts describing the difference between a Leman Russ company and baneblade company :) And of course 1 baneblade beats 3 independant leman russ every time, hence tis one of the reasons why such an option doesn't exist.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Number of Tau units vs others
Well you would be silly not to add an excellent skyray as well. All together the 5 tanks at 300 are superior to the skorp (are they the 20% better? I think so), without the skyray I'm not sure if they are better as its then them being slightly less tough with a mixed weapon load vs a dedicated load. Though of course against infantry at 30cm wipe the floor with them. Still, why wouldn't you take the skyray everywhere? AA missiles, 4+ armour and a markerlight.
Author:  Dobbsy [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Number of Tau units vs others
OK TRC, how about you take out the Skyray as you're just changing your stats to how you want them. The comparison should be Stingrays vs Scorpionfish as these are the units in question. 225 points vs 250 is more accurate. What does that do to your equation?? 6x(essentially) 5+ saves(Scorp) vs 4 5+ saves(rays)...

Stingrays don't look so tough now eh? and the points become closer to balanced...

Point is, you may want to have the two units to do a similar job. This way you can put two different kinds of models on the table instead of 2 of the same for roughly the same price. You may not want 2 Scorpionfish on table - for example vs a TK weapon that will open the Scorp up like a tin can where as you can field a similar points cost and make it impossible to kill that formation with one shot.

Getting stuff balanced becomes hard and harder the more units you have that do each others job.
See I think it's easier because you have reference...
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Number of Tau units vs others
Quote: (Dobbsy @ 17 Sep. 2008, 13:57 )

OK TRC, how about you take out the Skyray as you're just changing your stats to how you want them. The comparison should be Stingrays vs Scorpionfish as these are the units in question. 225 points vs 250 is more accurate. What does that do to your equation?? 6x(essentially) 5+ saves(Scorp) vs 4 5+ saves(rays)...

Stingrays don't look so tough now eh? and the points become closer to balanced...

Point is, you may want to have the two units to do a similar job. This way you can put two different kinds of models on the table instead of 2 of the same for roughly the same price. You may not want 2 Scorpionfish on table - for example vs a TK weapon that will open the Scorp up like a tin can where as you can field a similar points cost and make it impossible to kill that formation with one shot.

Getting stuff balanced becomes hard and harder the more units you have that do each others job.

See I think it's easier because you have reference...
Hardly. Would you compare a guard mech formation to something else without the Hydra? Its nigh compulsory. Likewise when considering Tau mech I would always include the skyray, both for the aa and the markerlight for the gm's on the devilfish.

Likewise with the skorp having AA its hard to compare without the skyray added to whatever you are comparing it too and of course skyrays fit in quite nicely with stingrays having a similar load out.

When you compare formations you have to take into account their likely upgrades, as those upgrades can massively change their performance.

Having a point of reference is fine - except now you have multiple units, all slightly different being compared against each other. Ultimately after a long time with the same list it becomes clear which are the best and which the worst, but with a shorter time and less players when you design a list you want to get rid of as much as that as possible.

Back to the survivability question :) Discounting multi tk shots the skorp has a chance of blowing up so the actual odds of killing him are 2/27 on the first point of damage, 2/27 on the second and 4/9 on the third (what does that do for his average damage needed to kill then?) and of course he breaks on the first point of damage unlike the rays (esp. if you have included the skyray).
Author:  Moscovian [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Number of Tau units vs others
Poll is up.
Author:  colonel_sponsz [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Number of Tau units vs others
As I see it, the number of Tau units, formations and upgrades is one of the defining characteristics of the list.  It allows highly flexible and versatile combined arms forces which is how the Tau are depicted in the fluff.

I wouldn't know how to build a min/max army but if that is a genuine concern then adjusting the points costs and availability of upgrades would seem to me to be the way to go rather than turning the list into a high tech, blue, Imperial Guard clone.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Number of Tau units vs others
Well currently after min maxing it can often end up a high tech guard clone :)

It might be great character but its a nightmare to balance and is more 3rd edition than 4th.
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