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Scorpionfish idea
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=13538		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Dobbsy [ Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:06 am ]
Post subject:  Scorpionfish idea
Some people love it. Some people hate it in large numbers.

What if we kept it only as the SC upgrade?

It would reduce how many are around, while letting those who love it still use their beloved vehicle....

Anyway just an idea.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Scorpionfish idea
Scorpionfish is a problem because it reinforces the irritating 'never move gunline' aspect of the SG Tau.
Author:  Onyx [ Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Scorpionfish idea
Quote: (Hena @ 16 Sep. 2008, 12:17 )

Scorpionfish is not a problem. Show me where it's a problem without using the Markerlight Sentries and I can start thinking about it. Sentries are the problem.

Scorpionfish without Sentry Turrets are not worth using at all.

Don't remove sentry turrets, just limit their number (as CS has done in the latest list - maybe limit them to 1 formation/1500pts) and increase their cost (to at least 100pts per group).

I also have 4 Scorpionfish models and I want the ability to field them all in a game.


With regard to removing Sentry Turrets - CS has already mentioned that removing special rules to fit in with a supposed limit on words is not something that JJ had a problem with. Can we get on with developing the units we have, rather than wanting things removed because of a incorrect/misunderstood assumption about the rules.

This thread is going to see a lot of repetition from earlier posts but I applaud your efforts to make the Tau work Dobbsy.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Scorpionfish idea
I also have 4 Scorpionfish models and I want the ability to field them all in a game.


Then isn't a 'standard' and 'armoured' Tau list split most appropriate?
Author:  Onyx [ Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Scorpionfish idea
Like I said.. A lot of repetition.  :whistle:  :tongue:

Sorpionfish (and other GM units) can't Sustain Fire from behind cover (not a problem for most other races artillery).
Hitting with 6 (or 4MW) dice on 6's (AT) is not very effective. A Scorpionfish that is out in the open (to use Sustain Fire without Markerlight Sentry Turrets) is dead meat (at least the SC upgrade has the shield).

You say it's not working in game - In the games where the opponent wastes time and activations trying to kill the Sentry Turrets it has been a waste of time for the non Tau player.
In the games where the turrets are ignored and the Tau military units are targetted instead, the games have been MUCH more interesting and competative. We have played this situation often and my opponents do not have a problem with Sentry Turrets.
Too many Tau opponenents are getting fixated with killing the Turrets which is a waste of time.

I'd love to see some NEW ideas/statements in this thread.
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Scorpionfish idea
Quote: (Onyx @ 16 Sep. 2008, 09:03 )

Scorpionfish without Sentry Turrets are not worth using at all.

Am I the only person who use to play GM armies before sentry turrets?

Quote: (Hena @ 16 Sep. 2008, 09:18 )

As for allowing boring gunline, then play differently. If that does not suit your playing style, no one forces you to play in such manner. Tau list allows a lot of other quite usable styles as well.

Heres a key point. Currently possibly the best (possibly as a few things have just changed) Tau army is the long range gun line.

Tau in Epic were never supposed to be that (thats Guard territory I feel).

Tau were supposed to have murderous short range firepower balanced by weakness in assaults. A completely different style.

We didn't use turrets for ages, then apparently used them wrongly. Our static gun lines got by just fine with air dropped heavy drones and pathfinders.

Quote: (Onyx @ 16 Sep. 2008, 09:36 )

Sorpionfish (and other GM units) can't Sustain Fire from behind cover (not a problem for most other races artillery).
Hitting with 6 (or 4MW) dice on 6's (AT) is not very effective. A Scorpionfish that is out in the open (to use Sustain Fire without Markerlight Sentry Turrets) is dead meat (at least the SC upgrade has the shield).

They can if you are running a pre markerlight GM army.

In the games where the turrets are ignored and the Tau military units are targetted instead, the games have been MUCH more interesting and competative. We have played this situation often and my opponents do not have a problem with Sentry Turrets.
Too many Tau opponenents are getting fixated with killing the Turrets which is a waste of time.

That shows in your game group a fascinating problem and the reverse of what we've found. It seems for you GM units are too weak unless the enemy is reliably lit up?
Author:  Onyx [ Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Scorpionfish idea
TRC - Did you used a GM line that used Heavy drones to light up the opponent? With most calling for Heavy drones (and normal drones) to be cut as a formation, that is (possibly) not an option.

Quote: (Onyx @ 16 Sep. 2008, 09:36 )

Sorpionfish (and other GM units) can't Sustain Fire from behind cover (not a problem for most other races artillery).
Hitting with 6 (or 4MW) dice on 6's (AT) is not very effective. A Scorpionfish that is out in the open (to use Sustain Fire without Markerlight Sentry Turrets) is dead meat (at least the SC upgrade has the shield).

They can if you are running a pre markerlight GM army.

I know that and that is my point.
The enemy must be lit up for Scorpionfish to be worth using. Markerlight Sentry Turrets are the best way to do this.

We've found that GM equipped units are pointless against non-lit opponents. Removing Heavy Drones as a formation (as most, including me, seem to want) would just make it even harder to get GM's worthwhile.

Most times the GM units cannot sustain fire on their targets (if the Sentry Turrets are removed from the list). Popping up to fire (possibly triggering Overwatch) and then hitting on 6's (or 7's) is not good enough. Guard artillery with 3 or more BP's are hitting vehicles on 4+ with sustain fire.

That shows in your game group a fascinating problem and the reverse of what we've found. It seems for you GM units are too weak unless the enemy is reliably lit up?

I did float the idea (a while back) that Markerlights be done away with and that all Tau GM to-Hit numbers just improve by 1 (AT5+ instead of 6+). Would simplify the Turret issue. Still wouldn't help with Sustaining Fire Indirectly though (as most other races can do).
If Turrets and Heavy Drones were to be removed, Pathfinders (and Tetra's) would be compulsory in any GM list. I don't like that kind of rigidity.

I've got my main opponent sitting right here with me now and he can't understand all the fuss about Sentry Turrets. Ignore them and kill the Tau combat units. It's not that complicated.

Anyway, we're off to play StarCraft. :vD
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Tue Sep 16, 2008 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Scorpionfish idea
Gm's aren't essential, just handy. So pathfinders in large numbers become essential if that is the style of army you want (assuming the historic vision of the Tau - if you just want to play long range shooting or think this is how they should play then yes GM's and pathfinders galore - note gm's are more important in the sg list, in the FW selection of models they are a secondary AT only weapon).
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Scorpionfish idea
Quote: (Hena @ 16 Sep. 2008, 18:44 )

I've seen them used without turrets. Not in large numbers as Hammerheads tend to show up as well (in addition to Kroots or Humans and Drones).

We started with hammerheads then moved to stingrays before the stats went down.

Eh? From the Taros it certainly was mainly that. Sniping away from long range and rarely closer up. 40k won't ever try to imitate that, so I don't see why Epic should care that much about 40k.


I thought that was strategic level not battle level?

So what do you want? A long range shooting army with better assault values? Isn't that the Imperial Guard?

Without turrets you must have some units that move close to enemy to light targets up. So you can't be total gunline.

Any gunline throughout history has spotters and skirmishers up front to spot and slow the enemy down.
Author:  Lion in the Stars [ Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Scorpionfish idea
Frack, if I'd have known how much trouble the Sentry Turrets were going to cause, I'd have never proposed the things!  The issue with markerlights is their short range compared to most other weapons (Seekers have an unlimited range in 40k, and Rails have a 72" range).  You either need a drone carrying a ML out ahead of your forces (or other scouting elements), or you don't have Seeker missiles in 40k.  Period.  Markerlights add a LOT of effectiveness to the Tau in 4/5e (in that they help other units, not just GMs), but I still don't use them when I play 4e (except for Sniper Drones, which need the help).

Since I just re-read IA3: Taros, I'd like to point something out:  The Tau didn't strictly rely on long-range fire.  They used long-range sniping to slow columns of IG.  They would also spring short-range ambushes, and they flat-out assaulted the extraction LZ when it was defended by Marines (2 Mantas and all their friends?  ouch!).  

I mostly agree with TRC's vision of how the Tau should play:  massive short-range firepower, highly mobile, with enough long-range firepower to pin the opponent to allow other forces to close and destroy in detail.  That's not what I read the Tau list as being right now.

One of the most powerful units in 4e 40k (haven't played 5th yet, but they did some serious vehicle nerfing in 5e) was a unit of Fire Warriors in a devilfish.  Advance to rapidfire range from an enemy unit, FW jump out of the DFish and rapidfire the stuffing out of the target.  DFish adds some extra firepower to clean up.  Lather, Rinse, Repeat.  Very few units can survive that many high-strength shots.  Orks and Guard just cease to exist with average rolls (this is without having a marked target squad).  24 shots, 12 hit, 10 wound.  targets get no save.  Only Marines can survive against that firepower, but two squads of FW usually work wonders.  It is worth mentioning that this unit of FW is about 250 points all told, and an IG squad is roughly 100 points if they have a heavy weapon.  250 points of Orks is more than 30 boyz, including heavy weapons.  

I'm not entirely sold on the idea of the Scorpfish, to be honest.  I always thought that the Tau answer to War Engines would be MW or TK guided missiles carried by aircraft ('cuda or Tigershark), not a glorified Orca with weapons stubs grafted on.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Scorpionfish idea
(haven't played 5th yet, but they did some serious vehicle nerfing in 5e)

Incorrect, Vehicles have recieved a huge boost in 5th edition, because you can no longer destroy a vehicle with a glancing hit.
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