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Tau alterations proposals

 Post subject: Tau alterations proposals
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:05 am 
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After reading through the last few months of posts it seems a few things need a change.Here is my "in a nutshell" list of proposals/changes in regards to the Tau list(my views and reasoning will follow)

Fire Warriors 4+ FF, 6+ CC, 15cm Pulse Rifles AP5+. 8 units for 250 pts.
Scorpionfish move it to the collector's section and replace it with a: Fusion MW Hammerhead support group
[b]Swordfish
remove it
Sniper Drone team remove it
Tau Jet Pack rule Just replace it with Hit and Run.
Sentry TurretsMake them 25pts. each and 1-3 per 3000 point game. Make them a standard unit BUT with no activation.
Barracuda make it a focussed CAP formation. Remove AA on Ion Cannon and give it 5+ armour to reflect it's correct agility (somewhere between Eldar and Imperial Navy). Another option is to make them a 2 plane formation to reduce cost. I'm not sure which one I like the best but I think I lean towards the former.
Crisis Suits return it's MW FF
Auxilia Implement Moscovian's proposal regarding selection
Vespids move them to the collector's section
Moray increase cost to 350 each

Reasoning etc

Fire Warriors - they aren't popular which is a shame. While I do like their current 2-shot incarnation I think they need to be that menacing anti infantry force that Tau are in 40K and we have to break from this "have to be weak in engagements" design for this particular unit - just so others might see them as usable. And hey, if we change them to 4+FF and people don't like them, well at least we say we tried all avenues of design.

Scorpionfish/Fusion HH - Sure, it's a non-canon unit and there's no miniature, but can be converted.  I use one myself and find it does very little but some find it to be over-present in army lists (no numbers as to just how many people feel this way). I would support it's removal however for a Fusion MW Hammerhead support group to help fill a gap in the list.  Tau are fairly short on ground based Macro Weaponry and TK ability. The FG-HH would go someway to filling that role. We should at least try this arrangement to see if it helps balance any. If we have to keep the Scorpionfish in any incarnation move it to the collector's section.

Swordfish and Sniper Drone team - These units have always seemed superfluous. The Swordfish because it just seemed that a Hammerhead was really just as good; and the Sniper team because it just seems tacked-on to the list because of new gear from 40K. Heck we don't need to add more to the list!

Tau Jet Pack Rule - well, one of the most contentious rules for Tau that there is. I would like to see it scrapped for the plain-old Eldar Hit and Run rule. It simulates to some extent what the Crisis Suits generally do and also doesn't make them so diffcult to deal with as some here have said. It's fairer to both sides really IMO. It's also an established rule which would cut out a new special rule.

Sentry Turrets - These are difficult to understand by some. I personally have only ever had one issue arise from them rules-wise and that is the fact that the opponent can place his garrison troops right on top of them (due to placement) in his set-up due to them having no ZOC. It was weird and we didn't like it. If we make them easier to understand maybe people will be less unhappy to see them.

Barracuda - A few people have mentioned how Tau have "everything" well let's focus at least one unit a little more instead of it being an all-in-one aircraft. I would like to see the 'Cuda become the airpower force it should be. Sure, some may argue that it has seeker missles in the fluff, but in all honesty the 'Cuda feels like it's over-armed. Why not leave true ground attack to the Tigershark? On the armour boost, the Tau aircaste are born in their planes, they should at least be an agile unit type. Eldar have armour and agility for a 4+ aircraft. Is it really that much of a leap for the Tau to have 5+ armour?

Crisis Suits - gimme back my MW FF! :D I think CS mentioned he was reviewing this anyway.

Auxilia - if folks really want to use auxilia I really like Moscovian's idea.

Vespids - again, another "unit creep:40K codex" formation. They aren't necessary and are just another unit added to a list already fat with unit types as it is. To the Collector's section with you!

Moray - It fills a niche. Regardless of what some think, it truly does. The problem I see with removing it as some have suggested is that the Tau really are low on ground based TK weaponry. Fighting Titans is a ridiculous endeavour in my experience. To kill 1 Reaver-type titan I once had to dedicate 6 formations in one turn and even then it came down to literally, the  final dice roll of the game!

Unless you go A-X-1-0 heavy and these are fragile in my experience Tau need the Moray. Also it would be nice to have a choice of whether to use air or ground support in the list.

Bump up the price of the Moray to 350 each and it becomes impossible to include anything more than 2 in a 3K game. Personally I'd never use more than 1 even at 300 points, but that's just me as I try not to be a cheezy git. Hell, if necessary to stop the cheese, put a force restriction limit on them be it 0-1 what-have-you etc etc.

Well, that's my view anyway. Hopefully, this might go someway to giving those who are unhappy with the list a different outlook on it.

Shoot it down as you will gentlemen.





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 Post subject: Tau alterations proposals
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:01 am 
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Hey Dobbsy, welcome back mate :) .

Fire Warriors 4+ FF, 6+ CC, 15cm Pulse Rifles AP5+. 8 units for 250 pts.

I still would prefer a 30cm attack on the Pulse Rifles.

Scorpionfish remove it and replace it with a: Fusion MW Hammerhead support group.
I'm not in favour of this. I have several of these and am not convinced that they break the game. I believe they should see a points increase (especially for the SC option). 30cm range on the MW FC is not good enough.

Swordfish remove it
Sniper Drone team remove it
Agree.

Tau Jet Pack rule Just replace it with Hit and Run.
After playtesting it I like Jstr/E&C's version of this rule (move 10cm after shooting).

Sentry TurretsMake them 25pts. each and 1-3 per 3000 point game. Make them a standard unit BUT with no activation.
I would definately want to have 6 Markerlight Sentry's so a max of 2 groups of 3 for 100pts ?per group is my suggestion. Not interested in them being a garrison unit (they need to be deployed somewhere that a Markerlight cannot be or there is no value in them).

Barracuda make it a focussed CAP formation.
Agree (but no reduction to the squadron size)

I also agree with TRC that the Tiger Shark is too good at AA so maybe replace the Heavy interceptor missile with the Interceptor missile.

Crisis Suits return it's MW FF
Agree.

AuxiliaImplement Moscovian's proposal regarding selection
Agree

Vespids move them to the collector's section
Agree

Moray increase cost to 350 each.
Agree (but I don't like being called cheesy for wanting more than 1 ?:p ?:D ).

Thanks for coming back and taking the time and effort to help solve the problems mate.





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 Post subject: Tau alterations proposals
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:16 am 
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Fire Warriors 4+ FF, 6+ CC, 15cm Pulse Rifles AP5+. 8 units for 250 pts.


I like what Forgeworld did with these, which is reduce their formation size to 6 units.

It matches the pack size closer, for one thing (Something that all Epic army lists except the SG Tau take very seriously).

Scorpionfish remove it and replace it with a: Fusion MW Hammerhead support group.
I'm fine with that.

Swordfish remove it
Yep.

Sniper Drone team remove it
I'm on the fence here ; Mind you I've never seen these used.

Tau Jet Pack rule Just replace it with Hit and Run.
I'm for Jstr's proposed rule mod.

Sentry TurretsMake them 25pts. each and 1-3 per 3000 point game. Make them a standard unit BUT with no activation.
That'd be a lot better than the current version of them.

It'd also help cut down on Special Rules (The Tau list has too many).

Barracuda make it a focussed CAP formation. Remove aircraft Seeker Missiles and give it 5+ armour to reflect it's correct agility (somewhere between Eldar and Imperial Navy). Another option is to make them a 2 plane formation to reduce cost. I'm not sure which one I like the best but I think I lean towards the former.

I'd start with reducing them to a 2 plane formation, because FW sell the models in packs of 2.

Crisis Suits return it's MW FF
Only if Jstr's jetpack rule is adopted, as under the current jetpack rule they are too powerful when using MWFF.

AuxiliaImplement Moscovian's proposal regarding selection
I'm 50/50 on this one.

Vespids move them to the collector's section
Again, I'm 50/50.

Certainly they're an overpowered unit.

Moray increase cost to 350 each.

YES YES YES.

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 Post subject: Tau alterations proposals
PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:08 am 
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If anything goes I would prefer to see two lists formed - the most obvious being an armoured list and a Taros esk list - so no ones model collections get invalidated.

As to the specifics on changes

Firewarriors
These guys, when meched, are good. Indeed far superior to IG mech formations and people still take those. To doubters try a mech army with them, they are good enough. The problem i beleive is internal list competition means they are a poor choice, other formations are better or work better togehter.
Also there is I think a big difference between them mechanised and on foot, to the extent that the on foot formation just doesn't work. Maybe a bigger difference in cost between the two?

Aircraft
Yes I would like to see some more differentiation between them. The armour though should stay the same as in every bit of fluff Imperium pilots have I think faster planes and more experience/better training giving them an edge overall (its in the Taros book I think under Barracuda). Indeed the TS armour is far higher compared to its FW counter part than all the other Epic aircraft (oh and likewise the Orca - still if you upped the Baracuda armour at least it would fit the pattern!).

Marker towers
More I think on them and review mine and others experience I wonder why can't we go back to the old suggestion of making them an objective upgrade? Makes it hard for the enemy to avoid and represents all sorts of planning by the Tau to take/defend an area.

How do you feel about the Manta?

A general point is I would like to see the formation sizes fit the purchase packs. This can be flexible though. Note the firewarriors come in packs of 25 and drones in packs of 10. This could be a formation of 12 stands if you get two packs of FW and one of drones, or a straight formation of 10 (with no drones on the bases). Upgrades can also be structured around the packs.
And of course formation size in Epic can make things easier/harder to balance, there tends to be a good size that things live at happily. Can also be some radical thinking here with stuff like larger foot based Tau formations than mechanised ones to try and overcome the current ground pounder problem.

Anyway looking forward to cornering CS! And of course saving lots of comments to bounce off him first!





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 Post subject: Tau alterations proposals
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:06 am 
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After Playing around with the FW list I have changed my opinion about some of thees things. The guided missile boats I'm convinced need dropping as they don't feel Tau to me. The image I have in my head is FW's supported by Crisis suits at farily close range supported by aircraft and HH's and on occasion a Manta at long range. Artillery for me doesn't fit.

FW's I actually now think with a minor tweak they are one of the best infantry units in the game. If they get back their old stats with 1 shot at 30cm AP5+ and the Disrupt shock at 15cm AP5+ they are actually a much better unit. In my experience they don't tend to kill much with their twin AP5+ shots at the moment. With a disrupt shot it gives my opponent more of problem assaulting me as I don't need to kill bases to generate blast markers just hit him so I can be
+1 in the assault on BM's. I also like the formation size at 6 and an upgrade to 10 from the FW list. The Ethereal needs to be given inspiring as well. I have been using the one from the FW list which makes the formation fearless and gives them inspiring and it is awesome.

As for the rest Moray's I have no real opinion on other than Ben thinks they are underpriced.

The jetpack rule I don't think needs changing anymore as we have found several ways to negate it completely. Crisis suits do need a stat change though. Currently I like them as Light Vehicles with 2 ranged shots and a Macro Weapon FF I have tried this a few times and they appear fine.

I would also like to see the list split up as it currently has too many choices some of which are obviously duplicating roles. eg. The Scorpionfish and the Moray.

One thing that I would also like to see is the Manta be given stats more similar to what it has in 40gay. At the Moment it has twice as many shots as it should. It has one Twin-linked railcannon (same weapon as the AX-1-0) and 3 Twin-linked Heavy Ion Cannons so thats 4 shots not 8. I would like to see it go back to being a super heavy Assault Infantry Carrier.


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 Post subject: Tau alterations proposals
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:13 am 
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Jstr19 I don't have access always to 40k stuff, what are the mantas stats? Certainly I was puzzled the Tau on Taros didn't just go nuke the guard if they had a bunch of them - they attack starships do they not?

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 Post subject: Tau alterations proposals
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:47 am 
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The 40gay stats are what I posted. The SG list has broken up the Twin-linked guns to individual weapons. It also has 16 Long Barreled Burst cannons which the FW list reduced them to 8 as only 8 are in a position to shoot troops on the ground.


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 Post subject: Tau alterations proposals
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:22 am 
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Dobbsy, welcome back!  I'll try to digest some of your stat changes over the next couple days.  In the mean time, how would you break up the auxilias?  Which units would you pull?  And would you move the Hammerhead formation out of the core formations?

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 Post subject: Tau alterations proposals
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:45 am 
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change whatever stats or costs are needed but once again i must say that it is far too late in list development to remove units. people ,like me, have converted swordfish and scorpionfish and sniper-teams and would like to continue to field them in the future.

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 Post subject: Tau alterations proposals
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:54 am 
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Yes, if you wanted a list with less units it would have to be a second list. Indeed you could have the current core one plus whatever stuff from FW that has been released lately and a list with a far greater cut down range of stuff. The purpose of th elatter being to become tourni balanced as soon as possible.

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 Post subject: Tau alterations proposals
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:10 am 
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Go for it for increasing Morays points to 350 & Drop Barracuda squadron to 2 (with option for 3rd plane for those who have 3 Cudas)


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 Post subject: Tau alterations proposals
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:38 pm 
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Quote: (Tooninki @ 01 Jul. 2008, 09:10 )

Go for it for increasing Morays points to 350 & Drop Barracuda squadron to 2 (with option for 3rd plane for those who have 3 Cudas)

The SG list already has a bazillion options, whatever happens they shouldn't get increased.

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 Post subject: Tau alterations proposals
PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:05 pm 
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Quote: (illuvitar @ 30 Jun. 2008, 23:45 )

change whatever stats or costs are needed but once again i must say that it is far too late in list development to remove units. people ,like me, have converted swordfish and scorpionfish and sniper-teams and would like to continue to field them in the future.

A true auxilia broken out list could/should have every unit ever proposed.

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