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Report from Epic tournament in Helsinki 16.2.2008
asaura
 Post subject: Report from Epic tournament in Helsinki 16.2.2008
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:28 am 
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Here's some notes from a tournament organized by Hena last weekend. I played with the Tau, using this list:


Battlesuit Cadre
+ Drones
+ Supreme Commander
Armoured Mobile Hunter Cadre
- 6 Railcannon Hammerheads
Armoured Mobile Hunter Cadre
- 6 Ioncannon Hammerheads
2 x Firewarrior Cadre
Broadside Contingent
3 x Gun Drone Wing
2 x Kroot Auxilia
Hero-class Cruiser
Orca
Tigershark Strike Squadron
- 2 Tigersharks

My games went well. The list performed as expected, with the following caveats.

1) Independent Drone Wings are too good. They don't take BMs for casualties! They move 30cm! They have a decent save and can claim objectives and only cost 75 points.

2) The Supreme Commander formation I used is too expensive. The only reason I'll field a Crisis-suit SC again is if I can't get around to constructing a Scorpionfish model. Crisis suits worked better with the old weapons loadout.

Regarding the list, I made two major changes to my older lists. First, I got rid of the now-useless humans. Kroot used to be almost as good. Now, Kroot are basically a no-brainer. Using only FWs, Gun Drones and Kroot might be a very viable army.

Second, I got rid of markerlights and the now-useless Stingrays. I used to field one or two groups always, with at least two pathfinder groups. Now, I just relied on direct fire (Hammerheads, broadsides, aircraft). I think the Scorpionfish might be a useful GM platform, but for now I'll pass on the whole GM concept.

Both of the above things are bad for the Tau army list. First, we don't want the list to encourage massed infantry, do we? Second, we want people to use Guided Missiles, don't we?
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CyberShadow
 Post subject: Report from Epic tournament in Helsinki 16.2.2008
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 1:52 pm 
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Thanks for your feedback.

1) Independent Drone Wings are too good. They don't take BMs for casualties! They move 30cm! They have a decent save and can claim objectives and only cost 75 points.


This is a result of the simplification of the Drone rule, since pure Drone formations used to take blast markers as normal. Rather than going back to this, I can see reasoning to disallow Drone units from capturing or contesting any objectives.

2) The Supreme Commander formation I used is too expensive. The only reason I'll field a Crisis-suit SC again is if I can't get around to constructing a Scorpionfish model. Crisis suits worked better with the old weapons loadout.

I think that this is the first time that I have heard this comment. Does this apply only to your choice of the formation?

Second, I got rid of markerlights and the now-useless Stingrays. I used to field one or two groups always, with at least two pathfinder groups. Now, I just relied on direct fire (Hammerheads, broadsides, aircraft). I think the Scorpionfish might be a useful GM platform, but for now I'll pass on the whole GM concept.

I think that this is somewhat overstating the changes. I dont feel that the Stingrays are now useless, since they can still throw out some definite firepower.

Thanks for your feedback. It is great to get some actual battole experience with the list.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Report from Epic tournament in Helsinki 16.2.2008
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 2:01 pm 
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What's their saving throw in 40k when fielded as an independent formation?


I think 'no claiming objectives' when used as an independent formation is a good rule, though I'd question whether it's even appropriate to have independent formations of drones at an Epic scale.




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asaura
 Post subject: Report from Epic tournament in Helsinki 16.2.2008
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:05 pm 
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First, I'm glad these things get read :)

Regarding drones, I think I'd favor any of the solutions listed so far. Not taking blast markers with the new Disposable rules does not work with a drones-only formation, period. I think I like the idea about drones not claiming objectives best, since independent drones are a characterful part of the list. Perhaps a wording to the effect of "formations which contain only drones can not contest or claim objectives" could work.

Upping the cost to 100 is not enough with these current rules. Not having independent drone formations would work, but do we want to do it? What about them thar heavy drones etc?

CS, I agree that Stingrays are not quite useless. They are a specialist weapon now. I used to use them as general missile platforms, since they were so good, but now their firepower is too "specialized" for me to field them without having a specific plan in mind. This puts them in the same special category as the Ignore Cover weapons in the IG and SM armies, which is probably a good thing. However, I feel we now have too few missile platforms. Perhaps I need to re-evaluate the Piranha in this role.

The Crisis suits look ok on paper. However, I got no mileage out of them. With the SC, I constantly felt that committing the suits would just cost me my SC reroll and concede the BTS objective to the enemy. In return for some weak fire. I did commit the suits in one out of three games, as a reserve to plug a hole but, in retrospect, I would've been better off just sitting on the Blitz objective covered by some FWs. 425 points is not reasonable for something you can't use. A big part of this problem is lost drones causing hackdown hits in assault resolution. A crisis formation with drones is now extremely vulnerable to assaults, especially from teleports and aircraft.
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asaura
 Post subject: Report from Epic tournament in Helsinki 16.2.2008
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:23 pm 
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(Hena @ Feb. 18 2008,14:09)
QUOTE
I'm questioning the Disposable working in formations consisting only of them. If they take BMs normally, then I think that it would work (with save downgrade and cost upgrade).

I agree, but the old system of having two "modes" for BMs is way too "fiddly" for comfort. The new Disposable rule is simple. Simple is good.
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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Report from Epic tournament in Helsinki 16.2.2008
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:03 pm 
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If they are actually a problem (which I'm not convinced about), why not charge 125 points for a stand alone formation with unchanged rules and 75 points for a defensive unit add-on that soaks markers? You could differentiate between them by calling them different things maybe? Attack Drones and Defense Drones?? If we remove Heavy Drones we just supplant them with the standard Attack drones? We can still keep the entry for drones in one paragraph describing the different roles. i.e differnt programming for them in the fluff etc.

I agree with CS. Stingrays ARE NOT useless. They are an AP formation - always have been IMO. Having the seeker is the token AT hit for transport killing. They work brilliantly against infantry formations in cover - even with the reduction. 3+ Ignore Cover(including all modifiers from ML, Sustain etc)?
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asaura
 Post subject: Report from Epic tournament in Helsinki 16.2.2008
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:45 am 
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(Dobbsy @ Feb. 18 2008,22:03)
QUOTE
If they (Drones) are actually a problem (which I'm not convinced about)

Try them, please. Feel free to use even more than 3 formations; I'm sure I would be using more, were I to continue using the 4.4.2 rules. They take only one BM for incoming fire, regardless of casualties. This means that to break a formation of drones by fire, a shooter needs to kill 3 of the 4 units, or fire twice and kill 2. Combine with Tau Jet-packs to avoid assaults and a 5+ save, and you got yourself a formation that's just too good. It would be ace even without the 15cm Disrupt shooting attack.

Looking at the current list abuse potential, try this list on for size

1200 - 6 Fire Warriors
0700 - 4 Kroot
0600 - 8 Drones
0500 - 5 Orcas
3000 Points

23 activations. None of them easy to break. This is even worse than the Kriegers... Oh, but you're not convinced  :cool:
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asaura
 Post subject: Report from Epic tournament in Helsinki 16.2.2008
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:04 am 
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(Hena @ Feb. 19 2008,07:55)
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It would be similar to Grot rule, except assault works normally. I don't see the complexity being too much.

"Except." This is the way of SM2. Those were golden days, but the rules did suck, and all the "excepts" were the problem. I've played against about ten different people with the Tau, going through a lot of rules versions. In roughly half the cases, my opponent was facing the Tau for the first time in their life, in a time-constrained tournament environment. Simple is good. "Exactly the same as X" is good. Convoluted special rules is bad.
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rpr
 Post subject: Report from Epic tournament in Helsinki 16.2.2008
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:14 am 
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Could the drones be simply: 'As long as the formation has other units, they count as disposable'.

I did not even realise that 'no BM' rule when playing against those, and even without it, 75 points for 30cm move 4 unit formation with save - What were they thinking??
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Tooninki
 Post subject: Report from Epic tournament in Helsinki 16.2.2008
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:30 am 
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(asaura @ Feb. 19 2008,09:45)
QUOTE

(Dobbsy @ Feb. 18 2008,22:03)
QUOTE
If they (Drones) are actually a problem (which I'm not convinced about)

Try them, please. Feel free to use even more than 3 formations; I'm sure I would be using more, were I to continue using the 4.4.2 rules. They take only one BM for incoming fire, regardless of casualties. This means that to break a formation of drones by fire, a shooter needs to kill 3 of the 4 units, or fire twice and kill 2. Combine with Tau Jet-packs to avoid assaults and a 5+ save, and you got yourself a formation that's just too good. It would be ace even without the 15cm Disrupt shooting attack.

Looking at the current list abuse potential, try this list on for size

1200 - 6 Fire Warriors
0700 - 4 Kroot
0600 - 8 Drones
0500 - 5 Orcas
3000 Points

23 activations. None of them easy to break. This is even worse than the Kriegers... Oh, but you're not convinced ?:cool:

Note that you still have to take spaceship (Hero) if you want to use Orcas! ?:)
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