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Reducing choices in the Tau army list

 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:52 pm 
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As mentioned by several people in the forum the current Tau army list has too much choices (which also holds for the Chaos army lists). A possibility would be to reduce the list options as in the IG army list, which consists of companies, company upgrades and support formations (+Titan Legions and Aircraft). So here for Tau: cadres, cadres upgrades and support formation (+Air Caste and Auxillary Formations)

I looked through the army list to see what can be dropped easily without changing too much, still some radical changes have to be made (lot of reductions in choices and units).

This suggestions should be seen as a start and not as final.

I made a list of possible reductions(changes to tau army list).

Major reductions: - no upgrades for support formations (options for the support formation are still possible in the text)
                - reduce the number of available units: only one option of weapons for Hammerheads, Moray, Tiger Shark, no Swordfish (counts as Hammerhead),
                                    no Sniper Drones, reduce some leader units to leader characters.

Minor reductions: - no Hammerhead support formation
                - no Stingray upgrade
                - no heavy drones upgrade

I made some suggestions to new cost arrising through the changes, this are only guidelines. Also other changes would come to the Tau list due to inconsistencies in the 4.4.2 list (Custodian and Kroot Hounds too expensive compared with other units, Broadsides and Swordfish should have same stats for the twinlinked railgun and Gue'vesa Company is poor) and the current discussions (internal balance between Barracuda and Tiger Shark, Forgeworld packing sizes compared to formation sizes, Orca transport capacity (perhaps take 10 as compromise size), Crisis weapons) are not contained in the discusion here.

Changes suggestions one at a time:

A) Support groups:
A1. no upgrades for support groups (like in IG army list), which some changes to allow some 'upgrades' in support formations texts, see below. All other changes in A) are assuming using this change.

A2. Allow Gun drone squat upgrade (added to the text of) for the following support formations: Pathfinder, Stealth, Broadsides, Scorpionfish.

A3. Broadside support group: add +2 pathfinders or +4 gun drones for each +75pts.

A4. Hammerhead support group should be dropped, it's very simular to the cadre (especially with Hammerhead upgrade).

A5. Gun drone wing: As it is now, you can buy very cheap popcorn formations for 75points which don't get blastmarkers for casualties. My suggestion: Gun drone wing: 8 Gun drones for 150 points (you may replace all gun drones with heavy drones for +100 points). This would mean also no 125 points heavy drone wings.
The today aircraft transport rules (4.2.5) are made such as the complete formation has to fit inside the aircraft. This rule could be changed to the complete formation has to fit into the aircraft formation. Then you could still use the drones in a 2 Tigershark squadron, each carrying 4 drones.

A6. Stingray support group: may replace one Stingray for a Skyray for +25 points (this should be used to still get Skyrays, apart from cadres and also to use units of 3 Stingrays(+1Skyray) as sold by Forgeworld).

A7. Scorpionfish support group may have +4 gun drones for +75pts and one of: networked drone for +25pts or supreme commander for +100pts (not both, as now available (and only useful if you take 2 Scorpionfishes)).

A8. I'm not sure what to do with the pathfinder support group. How is the group usually used? Perhaps just drop it.

B) Upgrades:
B1. Sniper drones: The sniper Drones are very cheap for 25points. But for reduction of choices: I'd like to see them dropped completely. If you still want to use Battlesuit Cadre as Garnision (4 Crisis + 3 Stealth + 1 Sniper Drone), I'd advice changing the Stealth upgrade to (add either +3 for 125 or +4 for 175 points).

B2. Swordfishes: I'd thought about using the Swordfish as leader tank for an Hammerhead cadre (would be: add one Swordfish tank with leader for 100 points), the networked drones could then be skipped. The other option, would be just to drop the Swordfishes.

B3. Network drones could also be skipped completely, or like in 6.) or just added in the Hammerhead cadre text (and then dropped as upgrade option).

B4. No Stingray upgrade, to reduce the numbers of possibilities (the Stingray upgrade was only for Fire warriors and Battlesuits and Stingray support formation in the 4.4.2 list)

B5. No heavy drones upgrade (see also A5, the heavy drone upgrade took two upgrades slots because you had to purchase the gun drones upgrade first and was usable in 4.4.2 only for Firewarriors, Crisis, Scorpionfish and Gun Drone wing)

B6. Stealth upgrade: add +3 for 125 or +4 for 175 (see B1).

B7. Still there are many possible upgrades left (perhaps too many and further reductions needed).

C) Air caste formations:
C1. Tiger Shark AX-1-0: Tau army has enough titan killer (Moray and Manta) and an owfull ammount in AT weapons, therefore the AX-1-0 is not needed in the armylist
and can be dropped (counts as Tiger Shark).

C2. Moray: as for IG/SM Titan legion units only one waepon option is allowed for tournament games, to reduct options and because of C1, use only the Railcannon
Moray version.

D) Auxillary Formationes
D1. Idea: create a Leader Character (just with leader ability, e.g. Networked Drone) that could be added to the auxillary formations instead of having a special leader unit type.

E) Others:
E1. use only Hammerheads with railguns to reduce the choises.

I wellcome all feedback and other considerations and continuative suggestions.


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 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:03 pm 
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Suggestions:

Combine Kroothounds and Kroot simply to kroot with one pofile. You can already mix them on the base.

delete the towers. They are more objectives than usable in the highly mobile TAU warfare. simply doesn?t fit the background other than specific missions.

This are the most obvious points you didn?t cover SS. For all other suggestions I have too few insight in tactics of a TAU army.





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 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:36 am 
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I did not cover all points here, it was only to see if a reduction is possible.

I was missing Pirantha uprades, which formation needs them?

If you play with A1: You can combine the Heavy Drones with the Gun Drones upgrade instead of my suggesten in B5:

So Upgrade B5 (when playing with A1): Add either 4 Gun Drones for +75pts or add 4 Heavy Drones for +125pts.


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 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:35 am 
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OK. Firstly, thanks for your thoughts and spending the time putting them up here.

Secondly, I remain unconvinced that we actually need to drop any units at all. Dont get me wrong, I wont be adding anything unless it really is worth it, but the current list is pretty good at this point and I dont think that there is much to gain at this point by dropping units.

Thirdly, the calls for dropping units initially stem from a view (which I certainly dont share) that the variety of units makes balance difficult. I dont necessarily see how your suggested changes help balancing.

Now, if units were dropped, my suggestions for likely candidates would probably be:

- Sniper drone teams
- Krootox and Knarlocs
- Vespids

I can see your view of dropping upgrades to support group, and dropping the Hammerhead support group entirely.

However, to restate, I am currently against major dropping of units, and I feel that your changes cut too close to the bone of the list.

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 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:25 pm 
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@CS thanks for the reply.

As having too many choises was notices quite often, I looked for reduction. My example is just to show in which direction one could go (and if it is possible), and to start a reduction prozess, which should take a while and playtesting. And to cite Jervis: "An army list is defined both by what it can take and by what it can't take." So as the Tau list is already a specialised one (Third Phase Expansion Force), it should be limited in choices and combinations.

Vespids and Knarlocks are not often in use, cause lacking models. As Soren said Kroot hounds could also be combined with Kroots. Kicking of Sniper Drone, we would now have 5 units less (2 vespid, 2 Kroot, 1 Drone).

To support formation upgrades, as it is now, you can enlarge support formations by 50% of its own units. This option is very rare in other list (only used often in the chaos lists). Should such a flexible unit size be kept?


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 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:33 pm 
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As ever, I'd like to see the fan-made variants dropped, those being:

- The Moray
- The Stingray
- The Swordfish


They all make the list feel too 'fannish' to me.

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 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 4:34 pm 
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im in favor of dropping Knarlocks, Vespid and Moray, no models for them! Turrets are also ready to go. Leave sniper drones, they are cheap upgrade if you have 25 pts to spare... Change SG Gun drone wing to heavy drones 125 pts, leave as upgrade, drone wing 75 pts and heavy drones 125 pts! Leave Orcas transport cap at 12, its allmost useles at 10, you will have 1 or 2 spaces left all the time, if you dont use Kroots! Now you can transport 1 cadre + upgrade (drones, extra crisis/FW)! But please! Change Barracudas to 2!


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 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:24 pm 
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If we go down this road of dropping units my choices would be

Vespid
Kroot upgrades
Sniper drones
Swordfish

Dropping the Moray would seriously reduce the TK ability of the Tau list. You'd be forced to take a Manta or the fairly weak A-X-1-0. Try taking on a WE/Titan heavy list without a Moray... Not much fun really.

Dropping the Stingray reduces the "Tau artillery" capabiltiy.


As ever, I'd like to see the fan-made variants dropped


Well better just ditch Epic then mate as, like it or not, Epic is now a fan-based game...






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 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:27 am 
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I'm not in favour of dropping anything from the list.
Just adding another voice to the discussion.

I like being able to play my Tau in several different set-ups and still be competative.

And once opponents figure out that assaulting Tau is good (shouldn't take long :) ), Tau find Vespids quite handy (and Kroot).

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 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:27 am 
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Dropping the Moray would seriously reduce the TK ability of the Tau list. You'd be forced to take a Manta or the fairly weak A-X-1-0.


So you'd be forced to use things that exist as miniatures and in the background then, rather than using a fan-invented vehicle with no model...


If anything should be dropped from the Tau list, then the fan-invented units should go first.

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 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:51 am 
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I post seldom on the Tau forum but to give an inependent voice: IF units are to be dropped from ANY list then the fan-made should be going first.

This is a statement from me not only about Tau but for any armylists, future or current ones, which have too much units.

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 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:44 am 
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So you'd be forced to use things that exist as miniatures and in the background then, rather than using a fan-invented vehicle with no model

Better not let the Necron, Black Legion, Nid or Dark Eldar players hear you say that. Bang go half their units! (and yes, "half their units" is an exaggeration... in case anyone missed my sarcasm :D )

Fan invented units fill a slot in E:A that isn't necessary in 40K. i.e Moray is there to provide a cheaper option for TK weaponry. Forcing the Tau to take a Manta is like forcing Imperial armies to take a Warlord for TK weapons, but they don't have to because they have intermediary units like Warhounds and Reavers.... Tau don't benefit from this so for example, the Moray, is necessary to fill this slot IMO. A necessary evil perhaps but still necessary to help balance a list.

which have too much units
Define too many units.... What's too many? 18? 23?
Eldar have roughly as many as the Tau... Shall we remove some Eldar units ??






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 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:54 am 
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fanmade
I can understand when people say drop them, but also when people like to keep them because all the time invested in them ruleswise and even modelwise.

Most people will not have these fanmade models so they won't even look at that part of the list I reckon.

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 Post subject: Reducing choices in the Tau army list
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 6:03 am 
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In all honesty, of the models in the list, the one I think really could stand to go the most is the Scorpionfish. While I like the prospect of a 'super heavy missile tank', it just doesn't seem in fitting with the tau way of war to field a relatively slow moving, static, artillery piece style item when they have fast moving surgical strike elements with similar long-range high-powered weapons. A slow moving element like that would slow the entire tau army down, because they couldn't move faster then it could or they'd leave it behind. The Support Vessels are 'slow', but still quite fast (and able to move very fast cross-country, being essentially aircraft with a 'hover' mode).

Fan-made models don't generally bother me, so long as they fit the style and flavor of the list. The Moray, IMHO, does this nicely, as does the Swordfish and Stingray. The Scorpionfish, though, really feels to me like something which was shoehorned into the list in order to give the tau a 'super heavy tank' on the ground, with no real in-setting justification for its existence at all.

Some of the Auxilia formations could probably stand to be cut from the list too, but that's about it IMHO, and I don't think their removal would particularly impact the playability of the list over-all for the most part.


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