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Fire Warriors
Chroma
 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:56 pm 
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Quote (ragnarok @ 14 June 2006 (19:53))
:evil: I'm sure Firesight's Firewarriors can FF4+. ?Infact my Cadres will go and join his enclave.

No auxilias, better FF, no Etherals. ?The fire caste in charge. ?It will be great. ? :(8: ?:p

Actually... by now, they might be CC5+!  *laugh*

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:01 pm 
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Oh yeah, they got better in CC not FF  :down: .  That is probably why one of my 40K pathfinders has a garotte.  That or I don't get them being useless in close combat. :laugh:

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:13 pm 
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Actually a Farsight Enclave army would be cool. You could even ask Tuffskull about how to create/paint O'Shovah himself! I'd imagine it'd be very heavy on Fire Warriors, Crisis Suits and Pathfinders and comparatively very light on almost everything else!
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Chroma
 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:22 pm 
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Quote (Ilushia @ 14 June 2006 (20:13))
Actually a Farsight Enclave army would be cool. You could even ask Tuffskull about how to create/paint O'Shovah himself! I'd imagine it'd be very heavy on Fire Warriors, Crisis Suits and Pathfinders and comparatively very light on almost everything else!

Well, once the "core" Tau armylist is completed, then we can have all kinds of dicussions on other Sept/Enclave/Expansion lists!

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:36 pm 
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Well the command spure from FW contains O'Shaver himself.  So the farsight enclave will be a good initial variant list.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:05 pm 
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I don't think much in the way of variations would really be needed. Up the size of Fire Warrior and Crisis cadres, drop the tank-cadre from the list. Maybe put a restriction on how many super-heavy skimmers you can put in per Crisis cadre or something. That'd work about right I think. His armies have a lot of Crisis Suits and very little of most anything else. Oh, no ethereals and no alien aux, of course. but you could fairly easily use the existing list to create a Farsight Enclave army if you wanted.
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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:03 am 
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I'm just waiting for opponents to start complaining about 16x 5+ shots at 30cm....
You don't think it's a little OTT? I worry it is.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:34 am 
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It might be a bit OTT. But they can't sustain as many casualties as, say, an IG Infantry Formation. And they suffer vastly more under blast markers for roughly the same price. Their default abilities may be better, but likewise they have no AT weaponry at all unless in Devilfish, and that pumps their cost a bit. Base-line they're 16x AP 5+. If they take fire and lose 1 base, then they're down to 12x AP 5+. If they take fire from 2 units and lose 1 guy to each, then they're all the way down to 4x AP 5+! They disintigrate very quickly under heavy fire, just have lots of fire power by base line.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:51 am 
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Pretty much all the Tau is amasing fire, not much dmage resistance - though here Tau are better than most since they have a 5+ save.
Still I admit it is a big jump - going from having to double for 16x6+ (either at disrupt) to having to advance for 16x5+.

Still at least if the pathfinder and humans change as well everyone has a clear role and any balance adjustments shouldn't knock the FW out of the running. I doubt it woulf be more than a points tweak anyway.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:43 am 
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Quote (The_Real_Chris @ 15 June 2006 (00:51))
Still I admit it is a big jump - going from having to double for 16x6+ (either at disrupt) to having to advance for 16x5+.

No to mention that if we stick with the upgrade possibilites(+4 FW) as is, we'll end up with 24x 5+ shots at 30cm...!

If we go with no FW upgrades as someone mentioned earlier in this thread maybe that would be tolerable(if still somewhat OTT)
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Tactica
 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:38 am 
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Dobbsy,

Its a fair question. One worth a deeper look too.

= Proposed FW PR change (200 pnts)
= 16 shots x 5+ to hit
= 2 in 6 chance for hits
= 5 AP only hits on average.

Q: for 200 points, is 5 AP hits on average for 8 stands at 30cm range when moving and firing on a unit out of cover too much to ask if...
... they can't hurt vehicles at range, and
... they can't assault all that well?

On paper, to me this seems worth a try, fair and in character for the list and unit.

= Proposed FW PR change + 4 unit upgrade (300pnts).
= 24 shots x 5+ to hit
= 2 in 6 chance for hits
= 8 AP only hits on average.

be mindful as well, if the target is in cover, if there's intervening terrain, or if the target infantry is up against a vehicle... oh, or if you doubled - the odds get worse. Furthermore - if the Tau do not succeed in their efforts, they will have just put them selves in charge range.

Again, seems close enough to be worth a try.

Points tweaks are always possible after we decide what the unit should be doing on the field.

Cheers,

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 7:01 am 
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Don't forget though Tac' you have a choice to Sustain as well if you or the opponent are in the right position.... Becomes 16x4+ shots at 30cm range. You can also upgrade with Devilfish for AT goodness. It is an extra cost though, granted. I would definitely think the +4 upgrade would be a bit much in this instance.

I do think the 200 points is fairly right though. In comparison to an IG Infantry company:

IG 13 units with 6x 45cm AP5+/AT6+, no save
vs.
Tau 8 units with 16x 30cm AP5+ only, 5+ save

OK, you have to add more cost to get AT values but for only 50 more points (in comparison to the Guard)you get 4x 75cm 6+(or better) AT.

So personally, (if everyone's happy to go with the 16x shots - Tau players and opponents alike )I think the 200 points with no FW upgrade sounds better in terms of balance. Plus IIRC, someone mentioned that FWs aren't designed to be massive infantry "companies"...?
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Honda
 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:04 am 
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OK, you have to add more cost to get AT values but for only 50 more points (in comparison to the Guard)you get 4x 75cm 6+(or better) AT.


Dobbsy, don't you mean for an increase of 100 pts  you 4 x 75cm 8+ AT shots?

Unless I'm mistaken, an 8 unit FW formation gets 4 DF for 100 pts. Did that change?

I think I could support these proposed changes.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 9:11 am 
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Hes referring to overall cost compared to a guard infantry company.

Yes it might go go up (hell siege infantry I reckon should be 175 points for 10 crap infantry stands) but I still think its a better place to be testing from than the current stat line.

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Fire Warriors
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:00 am 
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Quote (Honda @ 16 June 2006 (09:04))


Dobbsy, don't you mean for an increase of 100 pts  you 4 x 75cm 8+ AT shots?

Yeah TRC's correct Honda, I was just saying that for only 50 points more than a Guard Company you get better weapon range and possibly better to-hit values (with MLs, sustain etc)

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean by 8+ AT shots though...
"6+(or better)" was the roll to hit value.

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